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NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

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Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#81

Post by revelation »

frogpelt wrote: post #79
cobrausn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of your arguments tell me why this kind of relationship should be enforced by law, only why you might want to buy from a dealer and not a manufacturer directly.

Not now. But his arguments might tell you why the laws were created in the first place. Protection of consumers like you and me. I honestly I can't see a good reason for labor unions to exist anymore either, but they're still around and have plenty of politicians on their side.

Huh? The laws were created to stop manufacturers from turning around after using franchises to scale and selling directly at lower prices.

As "lower prices" tells you, the customer was not considered in the equation.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#82

Post by lostlogin »

leetrout wrote: post #6

Because the government is completely ran by corporations and Musk isn't in "the club" (yet). Gone are the days where the consumer is uneducated and the supplier doesn't have a way to easily and effectively communicate with customers everywhere from anywhere. There's a pretty good doc on Netflix, "Park Avenue: Money, Power and the American Dream", which covers some of the financial backing of congress and how it affec…

This reminds me of a movie about a car company who put seat belts in their cars and marketed them as safer. The name escapes me (and I can't see to find it via Googling). They had a hard time in court, but, I think, won. The establishment hates change.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#83

Post by Symmetry »

Pwnguinz wrote: post #80
Symmetry wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. This isn't "corporations" but a coalition of small businesses.

Huh? "Corporation" is merely a registration status. A small-time business/startup may very well be incorporated as a Delaware C Corp.

Yes, some of those dealerships (but not all) are probably organized as corporations, but most people (and clearly the OP with his reference to that documentary) mean it to refer to joint stock corporations.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#85

Post by lostlogin »

echohack wrote: post #71
jarrett wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet? Properly drafted English-language laws do read as code. It's like how you can describe formal logic in English: "All Americans wear hats. I am an American. Therefore I wear a hat." I take it you're arguing for something like Lojban, though. I see two problems there. First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the la…

> First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the laws of the land... Legaleese requires you to take years of law classes to even understand, and makes the same problem. I think it's more accessible to run something through a compiler...

It might take years to become a lawyer, but I bet their are more than a few people here who have spotted an error (international or accidental) in a contract that has passed under the eyes if a lawyer or two. My wife and have caught several major errors in our time that could have cost us a lot of money. There is no substitute for a careful reading of a contract, legal training optional.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#86

Post by IvyMike »

echohack wrote: post #71
jarrett wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet? Properly drafted English-language laws do read as code. It's like how you can describe formal logic in English: "All Americans wear hats. I am an American. Therefore I wear a hat." I take it you're arguing for something like Lojban, though. I see two problems there. First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the la…

> First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the laws of the land... Legaleese requires you to take years of law classes to even understand, and makes the same problem. I think it's more accessible to run something through a compiler...

> Legaleese requires you to take years of law classes to even understand

This is why I'm against EULAs. As a non-lawyer, it's an asymmetrical game--I have no idea what the legaleese I'm agreeing to actually means in a court.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#87

Post by eigenrick »

lostlogin wrote: post #82
leetrout wrote: post #6

Because the government is completely ran by corporations and Musk isn't in "the club" (yet). Gone are the days where the consumer is uneducated and the supplier doesn't have a way to easily and effectively communicate with customers everywhere from anywhere. There's a pretty good doc on Netflix, "Park Avenue: Money, Power and the American Dream", which covers some of the financial backing of congress and how it affec…

This reminds me of a movie about a car company who put seat belts in their cars and marketed them as safer. The name escapes me (and I can't see to find it via Googling). They had a hard time in court, but, I think, won. The establishment hates change.

"Tucker, the Man and His Dream" perhaps? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096316/

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#88

Post by lostlogin »

darkarmani wrote: post #49
Shivetya wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current arrangement came about as a means to benefit the manufacturers. The carrot was that they in turn would not attempt to circumvent the dealer system. Hence manufactures would produce cars in volume and sell them to the dealers. The dealers who made that investment in buying those cars then sold them for a profit. Dealers are protected by these same laws usually geographically. This in some way insulated the…

Why can't this all be enforced using contract law? I don't see McDonalds having burger dealerships codified into law, but rather franchise contracts that let them sell billions of pounds of beef, chicken, and potatoes through their "dealers."

McDonald's do exploit and undermine local laws and use their bottomless pockets to grind down opposition. This isn't the same as what you are talking about I know, but its on the spectrum. http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=...

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#89

Post by nrivadeneira »

jusben1369 wrote: post #64
pedrocr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The irony is that once (if) Tesla starts selling cars in significant volume their purely direct/internet/word of mouth model will break down and they'll probably find themselves....... establishing dealerships! How come? In my experience dealerships provide a horrible experience, where you're always thinking "how am I being ripped off here?". What value do they provide that is suddenly required once you reach scale?

Short answer: Think "the Apple Store" of car dealerships. Long answer: I don't think the mass market is in Tesla's future anymore. They're too late. There are too many competitive new entry level entrants from Honda, Nissan, Ford etc. I don't think Musk cares. He strikes me as a guy with a mission - to get us off fossil fuels - and he's doing that. I think his deal to supply the motor industry shows you where Tesla w…

How is the Apple Store an analogy to Tesla establishing dealerships? As far as I know, Apple Stores are owned and operated directly by Apple and are thus direct sales, while dealerships are third-parties/franchisees that buy from the manufacturer and re-sell to the consumer.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#90

Post by hkmurakami »

Symmetry wrote: post #83
Pwnguinz wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? "Corporation" is merely a registration status. A small-time business/startup may very well be incorporated as a Delaware C Corp.

Yes, some of those dealerships (but not all) are probably organized as corporations, but most people (and clearly the OP with his reference to that documentary) mean it to refer to joint stock corporations.

A union of small businesses banding together and throwing their weight around to protect their interests honestly sounds pretty analogous to a "corporation" doing the same.

It's like an amoeba throwing itself around or a small multi-cell organism doing the same. The details might differ but the effect from the outside is pretty similar.

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