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We were wrong

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Re: We were wrong

#431
post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as long as you understand that in this context, "live dangerously" means that you might rape people without meaning to, just because you couldn't think of a sexy way to say, "So do you wanna fuck?" That's an easy choice for me.

It's highly inappropriate for you to refer to "kissing someone", even if it's unwelcome, as "rape". Sexual assault, that's ok, even though I don't agree with it. But calling it rape is very disrespectful, maybe even insulting, to the victims of actual, violent penis-in-vagina rape.

"violent penis-in-vagina" rape is not the only kind. Most people completely forget that more men are raped every day in the US than women.

Re: We were wrong

#432
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it. Fortunately, it's like that in the U.S. too for most people. There is a very vocal minority here that is making things way more complicated than they actually are in real life. This was my favorite quote from the person you're res…

> This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. See, this is…

Whatever works for you. Your scenario actually seems somewhat atypical to me, but it helps me understand why you come off as "white knight" to everyone.

EDIT: which is to say, it's not wrong that this works for you, this isn't a criticism of that. I think you may be mistaking a local optimum for a global [in the sense of math - so the country/dating pool] optimum because it works so well for you; i.e. the false-consensus effect.

Also, I don't value "having way more sex" over "having extremely hot sex", but this is also just me.

Your advice would not work in my relationship. In fact, it is decidedly unhot to ask a "yes/no" question and I would probably get rolled eyes. It would still work and bluntly convey my intentions, but it would come off as completely un-suave. For us, the language of the body is far more rich, intimate, and revealing to one's true desires. In fact, rarely when we have sex does it start with both parties reaching the same conclusion at the same time. Sometimes, something as simple as a good-bye kiss can turn into a 20-minute delay -- and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Re: We were wrong

#433
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is at least a thousand ways to say no, and only a few of them requires the use of a word. And there may be times where women feel powerless, but unless they actually are powerless (that is the man wouldn't respect it if they said no) feeling has little and less to do with real world. Also please remove your last sentence. HN is a place that values discussions with a high intellectual content and it cheapens you…

You're trying to shift the burden here. Consent is not opt-out it's opt-in.

I don't think you can split it like that. To me opt-in would mean you have to go and ask, whereas opt-in would be being asked, but you seem to me to prefer being asked in a verbal manner, whereas I would also accept a non-verbal manner.

Obviously just jamming your dick into her isn't acceptable.

Re: We were wrong

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are describing is still sexual violence. Forcing someone into a form of contact they didn't consent to, even if there has been some other kind of intimate contact, is still sexual violence. A lot of sexual assaults occur in this way.

So trying to kiss a girl that you've been out on several dates with is sexual assault?

If you are violating their boundaries, then yes. I don't know if you are aware of this, but people who have been assaulted may have a problem with people violating their physical space and you doing something that you consider harmless may actually be a big deal. The point is get consent and default to doing no harm, which is basic human decency.

Re: We were wrong

#435
post #107

Dear fellow HN dwellers, If you read the writings of the Guide's author and do not recognize that it is misogynistic and advocating sexual assault, you have a problem. That problem is that you are mistaking sexual assault for "taking the first step." You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that…

"Without that consent, it is assault." I hate to be contrarian, because by the standards in most cultural spaces in the US I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, but I've traveled enough to know that there are exceptions to the exceptions people are taking with this material when you take culture differences into account. The majority of women in the majority of cultural spaces we on HN frequent of are saying it…

when I was in Rio, my US-acceptable "passivity" relative to the culture norm in Rio, got me absolutely no where there. It was only when I forced myself to be physically assertive that women started responding well and flirting back and I started getting dates

This ability to read feedback and adapt to a cultural context is exactly what the guide should teach. I know you say you're not defending the Kickstarter, but you're criticizing criticism of it, so the exact content of what we're talking about is very relevant. If you take a look at what the guide says, you'll know this has nothing to do with an "echo chamber" and has everything to do with sexual assault.

Consider the audience of seduction guides. They wouldn't be reading explicit guidance on how to verbally and physically interact with women if they had any understanding of the boundaries and expectations in their own culture. They should be learning how to read feedback from women and how to map out the boundaries in their culture and in each individual interaction with a woman. Instead, the guide advocates specific ways of physically handling women to people who are not remotely capable of figuring out whether those actions are appropriate in context or whether they constitute sexual assault.

Even worse, the guide teaches them that their "nice" impulses, their desire to respect women and their fear of making them angry by being openly sexual, are sabotaging them and making them less attractive to women. This is often true, but it's horribly irresponsible to teach people to interact in physically assertive ways while also teaching them to distrust their inhibitions against sexual aggression. If your inhibitions against sexual aggression prevent you from touching a woman while you talk to her, then your inhibitions need to be recalibrated. However, you absolutely cannot physically interact with women unless you have some trustworthy sense of how to avoid unacceptable behavior.

In other words, what the readers are in desperate need of is a way to figure out when they're making small or large mistakes, and when they're actually doing well. This would liberate them to start learning by trial and error. Instead, the guide actually says that men are notoriously bad at reading women, and you should never let any "signs" hold you back from the proper course of "ALWAYS BE ESCALATING!" What level of "resistance" is explicit enough to pay attention to? (Seriously, this is from a section titled "IMPORTANT NOTE ON RESISTANCE.") "If she says 'STOP,' or 'GET AWAY FROM ME,' or shoves you away, you know she is not interested." It then gives you a line to memorize -- seriously, a line to memorize for this situation -- and says, "If a woman isn't comfortable, take a break and try again later. All that matters is that you continue to try to escalate physically until she makes it genuinely clear that it's not happening."

Because "STOP" and "GET AWAY FROM ME" don't mean it's genuinely not happening -- they just mean you should try again later. Is this really good advice to give people who in all likelihood are already not that great at figuring out when they're assaulting somebody?

The kicker: "From now on you must ASSUME that she is attracted to you and wants to be ravished." Ravish means rape. It only sounds nicer because it is associated with an indistinct, rose-tinted past when rape could be considered classy under the right circumstances. (It is also used as a metaphor for overwhelming emotion, but the key to that image is the experience of being carried away against one's will, and once again the usage comes from a time when the concept of rape wasn't so intrinsically offensive as it is now.)

"GET AWAY FROM ME" means try again later, and you have to assume every woman wants to be "ravished" by you. This is not ambiguous material; this is material that teaches a model of interaction in which sexual assault is a commonplace side effect.

Re: We were wrong

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And not go up and rape a woman, but perhaps take a chance and put their hand on the girls shoulder during conversation to show interest, where they might have otherwise oddly looked away from them. Also, there's a huge difference between personal conduct in a night club and in a library. Touching someone you don't know is a no-no and many people find that form of contact (even in a night club) to be disturbing. Tou…

See, this is exactly the sort of ridiculous, reactionary nonsense at the heart of these crusades. No, touching someone's shoulder is not rape. You may define yourself as the moral minority, selflessly protecting everyone from imaginary evils, but your opinion is a tiny, minuscule, insignificant minority. Virtually everyone disagrees with you.

I didn't say touching someone's shoulder was rape, but you don't have the right to touch someone if they don't want you to or have affirmed that you may.

Re: We were wrong

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as long as you understand that in this context, "live dangerously" means that you might rape people without meaning to, just because you couldn't think of a sexy way to say, "So do you wanna fuck?" That's an easy choice for me.

This is so wrong on many levels, but briefly: 1) The legal definition of rape (at least in most states?) makes it such that one cannot "accidentally" do it. Keywords: "[by means of] force", "duress", "physical resistance", "objected verbally". A woman who was: * Not forced * Had no duress * Not physically resisting * Not verbally objecting * Mentally capable of making decisions ...is considered to be consenting. In o…

Excerpts from a random hit on the subject of enthusiastic consent, in re: Stubenville:

In the aftermath of the guilty verdict, several people observed that many of the teens at the party didn’t realize that this was rape. To them, the fact that the victim was unconscious didn’t mean anything. “I didn’t know this was rape,” said one witness. “It wasn’t violent.”

...

In many ways, the focus on “no” puts the burden – yet again – on women to rein in the libidos of men who presumably can’t control themselves… and in many ways can put them at a disadvantage. Women are often socialized to be non-direct for fear of causing offense; many women are frequently uncomfortable with being up front with saying “No, I don’t want this.” http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2013/03/enthusiastic-consent/

This is much more complex than you make it out to be, and that's precisely what obliges us to set guidelines that encourage folks not to rape rather than assuming not-rape as the default.

Re: We were wrong

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And not go up and rape a woman, but perhaps take a chance and put their hand on the girls shoulder during conversation to show interest, where they might have otherwise oddly looked away from them. Also, there's a huge difference between personal conduct in a night club and in a library. Touching someone you don't know is a no-no and many people find that form of contact (even in a night club) to be disturbing. Tou…

>Touching someone without their permission is just something you shouldn't be doing. I think its pretty clear reading the comments on this post who has actual experience in typical social settings and who doesn't. (Hint: you don't)

Ah of course, respecting people's physical boundaries makes me anti-social.

Re: We were wrong

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. See, this is…

Whatever works for you. Your scenario actually seems somewhat atypical to me, but it helps me understand why you come off as "white knight" to everyone. EDIT: which is to say, it's not wrong that this works for you, this isn't a criticism of that. I think you may be mistaking a local optimum for a global [in the sense of math - so the country/dating pool] optimum because it works so well for you; i.e. the false-conse…

Did I say we don't have extremely hot sex?

Of course, I realize I'm in a really fantastic relationship and most people don't have the luxury of being frank with their partners about their desires. But I'd encourage you to consider those things may not be unrelated.

Re: We were wrong

#440
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And not go up and rape a woman, but perhaps take a chance and put their hand on the girls shoulder during conversation to show interest, where they might have otherwise oddly looked away from them. Also, there's a huge difference between personal conduct in a night club and in a library. Touching someone you don't know is a no-no and many people find that form of contact (even in a night club) to be disturbing. Tou…

Oh please, we're now comparing touching someone's shoulder in a night club with sexual assault? If you don't want any contact at all with other human beings you probably shouldn't be in a night club.

There is a difference between accidental contact from being in public and having someone intentionally do the kind of shit the kickstarter project was advocating. Also, being at a night club is not an automatic invitation to touch someone, saying so is implying that women deserve the unwanted contact put upon them.
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