We were wrong • Hacker News Board

Re: We were wrong

#181

Post by hacker789 » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:26 PM UTC

ebbv wrote: post #107

Dear fellow HN dwellers, If you read the writings of the Guide's author and do not recognize that it is misogynistic and advocating sexual assault, you have a problem. That problem is that you are mistaking sexual assault for "taking the first step." You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that…

"Take your exposed penis, and thrust it into her vagina. Don't wait for her to put it in for you. Be dominant."

That could be instructions for rape. Or it could be instructions for the kind of a sex that millions of straight couples have every day. It all depends on the quote's context, right?

Right?

So stop taking quotes out of context from the author.

> If women are loudly saying "This is assault.", you need to take them at their word, because it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours.

Your language is intentionally misleading. What matters is the woman with whom you're interacting. Feminist internet commenters can neither give consent nor take it away. And the author is severely explicit about respecting consent. His quotes are being butchered.

Re: We were wrong

#182

Post by Zelphyr » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:26 PM UTC

boldpanda wrote: post #130

This book will sell more copies now that it's been banned by Kickstarter. I'm curious how the funding was going before this, I can't imagine it was getting much traction. I quantify this as a paranoid over reaction by Kickstarter, if the post wasn't breaking any of their terms of service.

Agreed and now about a million more people will have heard about this project that otherwise probably wouldn't have.

This reminds me a little of when The Last Temptation of Christ came out in the late 80's. All the bible-thumpers were screaming about how blasphemous it was and that everyone should boycot it. Which, of course, people being people they did the exact opposite and had to endure what turned out to be a pretty bad film.

Re: We were wrong

#183

Post by shawabawa3 » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:26 PM UTC

blocking_io wrote: post #160

shawabawa3 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're a murderer. Anyone who defends you is defending murder.

brilliant analogy apart from the bit where this guide actually does advocate sexual assault.

According to who? Your opinion? Did you even read the author's defense?

Re: We were wrong

#184

Post by angersock » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:26 PM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #146

Metrop0218 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours." Amen brother.

Just to be clear, because this is something misogynists like to pick on, both matter. The point of this is that you can't assume their consent just because you do. Of course, men who don't have experience with not having the power to consent struggle with this idea.

Well put.

Re: We were wrong

#185

Post by iandanforth » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:27 PM UTC

wmeredith wrote: post #62

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

Freedom of Speech goes out the window when you start dealing with private enterprise. Kickstarter doesn't have the power to "ban" anything more than you or I. They're just addressing the kind of content they don't want to be promoting, which is totally within their rights.

> Freedom of Speech goes out the window when you start dealing with private enterprise.

Why? And before you answer, take a quick survey of all the means you used to communicate today. How many of them were provided by 'private enterprise?' And how much of your day was spent on property owned by 'private enterprise?'

Not that we're going to resolve this debate in a thread :) but please consider the implications of this assumption. Also note I'm not advocating for a say anything you want whenever, wherever world.

Re: We were wrong

#186

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:27 PM UTC

Metrop0218 wrote: post #104

hacker789 wrote: post #28

Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men. If it becomes necessary to take a few quotes out of context in our noble quest to protect the fairer sex, so be it. Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advic…

EDIT: Apparently the OP was being sarcastic, and I failed to read deep enough into the ASCII characters. But if he hadn't been sarcastic, I would've still said what I said below. What the hell? I had to read this over 6 times to make sure I was understanding it correctly. "Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men." That right there ladies and gentle…

[deleted]

Re: We were wrong

#187

Post by pizza234 » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:27 PM UTC

ebbv wrote: post #107

Dear fellow HN dwellers, If you read the writings of the Guide's author and do not recognize that it is misogynistic and advocating sexual assault, you have a problem. That problem is that you are mistaking sexual assault for "taking the first step." You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that…

The same women that scream "assault", are very likely to have taking the of a stranger, consensually, in their hand, at least once in their lives.

What you naively don't know, is that in this field, the culture is very far from reality. Some ahem "people" would scream horror to things that they would secretly do.

It's nothing new under the sun.

Re: We were wrong

#188

Post by fusiongyro » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:27 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #131

fusiongyro wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have kind of a funny idea of censorship. Kickstarter can't stop the book from being made, and authors are certainly not owed assistance by Kickstarter or anyone else to get their work published. It's actually never been easier to get books published and there's certainly no actual censorship happening here. The only role Kickstarter plays is aggregating funds. The author is not limited from pursuing that goal thr…

You're absolutely right. It was within Kickstarter's rights to defund the work, or to disallow the project, or to impose whatever burdens their whimsy could think up. Nor are they the government, from which the first amendment is intended to protect us. The author, meanwhile, is of course free to publish the book in whatever other means he chooses. That doesn't make it any more right in my book, and sets up a dangero…

It contradicts their brand identity to some extent. But they're a corporation like any other, so if their financial ends are served by subjecting themselves to populist whims, that's just life. One could try to compete with them on that angle. Indiegogo, for instance, seems to attract people who find Kickstarter restrictive (also Europeans).

Re: We were wrong

#189

Post by knowaveragejoe » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:27 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #139

tomjen3 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truth is not subject to voting and Kickstarter has proved that they consider women inferior and in need of protection by banning this type of content.

When companies reject racist manuals, they're not taking the position that non-whites are "inferior and in need of protection". They're simply making the ethical choice, to the dismay of the people who enjoy racist sorts of things. Same goes for the misogynist manuals they're now taking the ethical stance against. So much for your ad hominem. I'd give Kickstarter kudos, except ethics are what people are supposed to h…

This is, of course, equating this guide to a manual for sexism and not what the majority of women find attractive.

Re: We were wrong

#190

Post by Cushman » Fri, Jun 21, 2013, 4:27 PM UTC

pizza234 wrote: post #168

Cushman wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women have been the target of systematic oppression for millenia, of which sexual violence has been a primary tool. Are you open to the possibility that that might not be over quite yet? That that might actually be deserving of a little sensitivity?

That's a very naive thought Do you think that women in the meanwhile, has been just poor victims? Don't forget that women are generally way ahead of men in human skills. Men and women have, their own forms of dominance. I agree that physical dominance is despicable, but don't think that the forms of dominance were going only in a single direction.

No. This is ludicrous revisionism, and you should be ashamed for saying it.

You do not get to treat a group of people as property for thousands of years, and then when they finally claw a measure of autonomy back from you say, "Well, that about evens the score."