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We were wrong

kickstarter.com

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Re: We were wrong

#171

Post by merlincorey »

bmelton wrote: post #110
tomjen3 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it as brilliant, I see it as a giant foot-in-mouth situation (which may be colored by the fact that I don't have a problem with seduction guides in general, and haven't seen the material in question) - until now Kickstarter has been neutral on legal content so if I see something I don't like, well too bad, but now there is a precedent for removing something because somebody finds it offensive, but others…

Agreed. The more dangerous precedent is that they are willing to cave to a vocal group who may or may not be right. Without defending the material, because I frankly can't, I am troubled to see Kickstarter imposing its own value judgements on projects, and even worse than that, now subject themselves to the value judgements of whichever populace can prove to be the most vocal.

The author defends it pretty well.

> The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape.

http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe

Re: We were wrong

#172

Post by Metrop0218 »

jff wrote: post #151
Metrop0218 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: Apparently the OP was being sarcastic, and I failed to read deep enough into the ASCII characters. But if he hadn't been sarcastic, I would've still said what I said below. What the hell? I had to read this over 6 times to make sure I was understanding it correctly. "Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men." That right there ladies and gentle…

It's sarcasm, dumbass.

It's pretty poorly done sarcasm, as many others didn't believe it either, asshole.

Re: We were wrong

#173

Post by joshguthrie »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #61
iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

Two things: One. Freedom of speech is a first amendment right to protect you from censorship by the government and the government only. Anyone, anywhere running their own service is fully within their rights to boot you off. Two. A sleazy pickup artist book isn't anywhere remotely near any previous works of banned art. I would consider something as awful the film Cannibal Holocaust to be fine art before I used that t…

>I would consider something as awful the film Cannibal Holocaust to be fine art before I used that term for some idiotic kickstarted pick up artist book.

Calling Godwin's Law here. Nazis were proud of burning books that were not art.

Re: We were wrong

#174

Post by Metrop0218 »

rlt wrote: post #149
Metrop0218 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: Apparently the OP was being sarcastic, and I failed to read deep enough into the ASCII characters. But if he hadn't been sarcastic, I would've still said what I said below. What the hell? I had to read this over 6 times to make sure I was understanding it correctly. "Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men." That right there ladies and gentle…

Hint: sarcasm

Ah, pretty poorly worded sarcasm there.

Re: We were wrong

#175

Post by rlt »

ebbv wrote: post #107

Dear fellow HN dwellers, If you read the writings of the Guide's author and do not recognize that it is misogynistic and advocating sexual assault, you have a problem. That problem is that you are mistaking sexual assault for "taking the first step." You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that…

If I'm in a club and I pull my dick out and forcibly place a random woman's hand on it, then of course that's sexual assault.

If I do the same thing in a bedroom with a woman who I've already been (consensually) fondling, is it?

Re: We were wrong

#177

Post by [deleted] »

Apocryphon wrote: post #100
wmeredith wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of Speech goes out the window when you start dealing with private enterprise. Kickstarter doesn't have the power to "ban" anything more than you or I. They're just addressing the kind of content they don't want to be promoting, which is totally within their rights.

It's pretty hilarious when libertarians and believers in unfettered free enterprise cry foul against corporations and businesses for having content standards.

[deleted]

Re: We were wrong

#178

Post by doktrin »

hacker789 wrote: post #28

Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men. If it becomes necessary to take a few quotes out of context in our noble quest to protect the fairer sex, so be it. Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advic…

What I dislike most about these discussions is that it invariably attracts ideologues of all stripes, of which you appear to be one.

> "Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men.

> Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles."

You're attacking a straw man with ad-hominems.

More importantly, you're glossing over the fact that women legitimately face threats and concerns that are significantly different from those of men. It's disingenuous to paint this as a plot by evil feminists.

Relevant :

    "More than one in three women worldwide have experienced physical 
    or sexual violence, a report by the World Health Organization 
    and other groups says.

    It says 38% of all women murdered were killed by their partners, 
    and such violence is a major contributor to depression and other 
    health problems." [1]
[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22975103

Re: We were wrong

#179

Post by draq »

dspeyer wrote: post #103
wmeredith wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of Speech goes out the window when you start dealing with private enterprise. Kickstarter doesn't have the power to "ban" anything more than you or I. They're just addressing the kind of content they don't want to be promoting, which is totally within their rights.

There don't seem to be any direct competitors to kickstarter, so when kickstarter chooses to ban something from their site, they ban it from getting kickstarted. Just because they don't use violence doesn't mean they don't have power, or that their power doesn't come with responsibility.

Are you saying there is a market failure for crowd-funding? (Maybe we need some government intervention? Or that because Kickstarter is an amazing service that has conquered a niche, it has the moral obligation to incorporate the Bill of Rights into their ToS?

Re: We were wrong

#180

Post by tomjen3 »

DannoHung wrote: post #24

Look at all these HNers defending sexual assault.

Look at you, unable to understand that things aren't binary and that it is possible to be interested in seduction guides and wanting to have consensual sex with attractive women without wanting to rape them.

It might even, gasp, be possible that women wants to have sex with men. Have you considered that.

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