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We were wrong

kickstarter.com

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Re: We were wrong

#81

Post by tomjen3 »

WA wrote: post #56
hacker789 wrote: post #28

Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men. If it becomes necessary to take a few quotes out of context in our noble quest to protect the fairer sex, so be it. Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advic…

Is this a joke? Inferior? Women like to have sex just like men do. But many women, especially in their early 20s, are often reluctant to take the first step. So a man needs to take action. That's what the whole fuss is about.

And all seduction guides do is offer advise on how to do that, but somehow what is acceptable for every issue of Cosmo (and a fair number of mens magazines) isn't acceptable for a guide on kickstarter.

Re: We were wrong

#82

Post by fusiongyro »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

I think you're conflating the right to promote something abhorrent with permission to promote something abhorrent in my space. There are many examples of rights which can be exercised to perpetrate moral wrongs. Kickstarter isn't capable of impeding that. They are, however, well within _their_ rights to revoke access to _their_ mechanism.

Kickstater is, ultimately, a business, and they've decided they will make more money by doing a little of their own policing. If what's best for art isn't what's best for Kickstarter, expect them to do what's best for Kickstarter. If someone can compete with them by doing what's best for art instead, more power to them.

Re: We were wrong

#83

Post by aeorgnoieang »

famousactress wrote: post #8
emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

It seems pretty clear you haven't read the parts of the published guide that were raising alarm flags. They're quoted in this blog post linked to from the apology: http://caseymalone.com/post/53339539674/this-is-not-fucking-...

It also seems fairly clear that you haven't read the context of those same quoted parts.

Re: We were wrong

#85

Post by Anderkent »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #61
iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

Two things: One. Freedom of speech is a first amendment right to protect you from censorship by the government and the government only. Anyone, anywhere running their own service is fully within their rights to boot you off. Two. A sleazy pickup artist book isn't anywhere remotely near any previous works of banned art. I would consider something as awful the film Cannibal Holocaust to be fine art before I used that t…

Freedom of speech as defined in US law and freedom of speech as liberty we value are not necessarily the same. While it's not illegal to boot someone from a private service for expressing opinions you disagree with it, it still may be wrong.

Re: We were wrong

#86

Post by blocking_io »

emiljbs wrote: post #53
DannoHung wrote: post #24

Look at all these HNers defending sexual assault.

Oh, wow, really? So just because some people are asking "Hey, is there something intrinsically wrong with these guides or what?" they're defending sexual assault.

Yes, because there is something intrinsically wrong with these guides.

Re: We were wrong

#88

Post by Cushman »

hacker789 wrote: post #28

Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men. If it becomes necessary to take a few quotes out of context in our noble quest to protect the fairer sex, so be it. Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advic…

Women have been the target of systematic oppression for millenia, of which sexual violence has been a primary tool. Are you open to the possibility that that might not be over quite yet? That that might actually be deserving of a little sensitivity?

Re: We were wrong

#89

Post by lotharbot »

>> "the decision had to be made immediately".

Kickstarter believes their only choices are "allow to continue unimpeded" or "cancel the project". This incident suggests a third possibility: "flag for review". They could set up a policy which allows them to temporarily suspend a project, placing a short-term hold on project funds so that they do not go either to the creator or get refunded. The review process would need to be fast and transparent, but not so fast as to require snap judgments.

Re: We were wrong

#90

Post by pbhjpbhj »

swombat wrote: post #11
emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

See http://curiousrat.com/kickstarter-allowed-funding-for-a-sexu... Quoting from the "manual": > 5) Get CLOSE to her, damn it! > To quote Rob Judge, “Personal space is for pussies.” I already told you that the most successful seducers are those who can’t keep their hands off of women. Well you’re not gonna be able to do that if you aren’t in close!” > “All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands o…

>touching them when they've expressed they don't want to be touched //

Maybe I'm being an idiot but where did it say that in your quote?

Perhaps it's this line:

>Even when a girl rejects your advances, she KNOWS that you desire her. //

I'd say implicit in that is that "when you have to stop because they've rejected your advance it's fine because they KNOW [blah blah blah]".

To be honest it's Kickstarter's gig, but I think putting someone down in this way for simply advocating diminished personal space in social interactions, seems a bit heavy.

Seriously from the "We were wrong" post I was expecting the "manual" to be telling you how to feed someone rohypnol [memory removal drug] not to touch their back when you're on a date.

>Content promoting or glorifying violence against women or anyone else has always been prohibited from Kickstarter. //

Where's the bit that promotes violence? It must be very obvious in the book otherwise they wouldn't surely be risking libelling the creator by making them out to advocate violence against women.

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