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We were wrong

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Re: We were wrong

#71

Post by loumf »

roc wrote: post #26
maximilianburke wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the guide is written like a rape manual, yes, yes it is. It features quotes like: "Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick." (from: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... ) The whole thing is disgusting, degrading, and has no pl…

At the same time... if this same content was written as fiction, with the viewpoint character/hero accomplishing his goals through these same methods and relaying that same philosophy through dialogue or internal monologue, would it be (as) problematic?

Of course it wouldn't. Is that surprising? Fiction is different from a how-to manual and should be treated as such. It's not just the literal words in a particular paragraph, it's also the surrounding context.

Re: We were wrong

#72

Post by bmelton »

iandanforth wrote: post #30

I don't respect this. I acknowledge that as it is their playground they can make this kind of judgement call, however I have always believed that freedom of speech also protects the freedom to hate and be a terrible person. There are countless texts, movies, and other 'creative works' which both condone and encourage violence against women, mass murder, torture, and other things I find abhorrent, but I don't get to b…

I've been tweeting jeers to @DoSomething (the group that garnered the petition) and kudos to Perry Chen and Kickstarter for not having ceded to censorship.

To be fair, the book is ugly. The passages quoted are disgusting. I would never buy this book, nor endorse that anyone else buy this book. If asked, I would state that I think the book is disgusting and that you probably should not buy it.

What is even more disgusting to me is the very popular idea that its manufacture should have been censored. While we may each be able to judge for ourselves that this book does or does not (for me, it does not) have any artistic value, none of us is capable of making that decision for the others, and certainly not for everybody else.

I'm somewhat saddened to see Kickstarter's apology for this reason, and I am disgusted that the project was canned altogether. But worse than all of that, I am deeply, deeply troubled that so many young people were so eager to jump on the censorship bandwagon.

Re: We were wrong

#73

Post by mcintyre1994 »

patrocles wrote: post #33

Kickstarter should claim safe-harbor as they are a conduit. This case means they open themselves up to being required to censor every project for every jurisdiction. Kickstarter apparently views the cost of that censorship as much less than the community cost. Seems unlikely to be the case.

I believe they've always censored in a fairly opinionated manner. I'd only be speculating if I tried to say why, but I imagine it's to do with wanting a much more active audience - a site needs to do a lot more to make you give your money than just keep on reading. If their projects list turned people away they'd be in a lot of trouble.

Re: We were wrong

#74

Post by Anderkent »

WA wrote: post #56
hacker789 wrote: post #28

Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men. If it becomes necessary to take a few quotes out of context in our noble quest to protect the fairer sex, so be it. Kudos to Kickstarter for adhering to feminist principles. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advic…

Is this a joke? Inferior? Women like to have sex just like men do. But many women, especially in their early 20s, are often reluctant to take the first step. So a man needs to take action. That's what the whole fuss is about.

It's sarcasm. 'Women are sensitive, fragile, inferior creatures who require constant, vigilant protection from honorable men.' and therefore we must ban this kickstarter.

Re: We were wrong

#75

Post by bayesianhorse »

deong wrote: post #36
blairbeckwith wrote: post #6

Reading some of the comments on that blog post, I left thinking: Am I a terrible person? I just don't see what's wrong with this project, and I certainly don't see the link between it and "sexual violence" – where is Kickstarter making this connection? Say what you will about the seduction community, my very brief and infrequent encounters with it have been largely positive and I left thinking that they were a genera…

Grabbing a woman's hand and forcing her to touch your exposed penis is, I think, sexual violence by almost any reasonable standard.

It really really depends on the context and how you define "force". This doesn't even come close to mild sado maso.

A kiss can be sexual assault, especially against minors. But even strangling (which I don't do and never did to a woman) can be part of consential sex. It's really sensitive subject. Let's not talk about fifty shades of gray...

"Consent" isn't discussed enough. For example prostitution is widely seen as consential, despite tons of evidence that prostitution hardly ever is a conscious, free career choice, and rape is rape no matter how much you pay to the pimp...

Re: We were wrong

#76

Post by aeorgnoieang »

maximilianburke wrote: post #12
emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

When the guide is written like a rape manual, yes, yes it is. It features quotes like: "Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick." (from: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... ) The whole thing is disgusting, degrading, and has no pl…

That quote was in a section about sex.

Re: We were wrong

#77

Post by shawabawa3 »

deong wrote: post #36
blairbeckwith wrote: post #6

Reading some of the comments on that blog post, I left thinking: Am I a terrible person? I just don't see what's wrong with this project, and I certainly don't see the link between it and "sexual violence" – where is Kickstarter making this connection? Say what you will about the seduction community, my very brief and infrequent encounters with it have been largely positive and I left thinking that they were a genera…

Grabbing a woman's hand and forcing her to touch your exposed penis is, I think, sexual violence by almost any reasonable standard.

Actually it's completely context dependant.

The context, which is conveniently being ignored in most of the discussion, is that at this point you are already "fooling around", at which point it might actually be a fairly reasonable thing to do.

It also says "If she says no, stop immediately"

Re: We were wrong

#79

Post by rlt »

maximilianburke wrote: post #12
emingo wrote: post #2

Maybe I was raised by a bunch of rabid dogs... But after reading the cached page... I really don't understand what the creator did wrong? He was a guy that I a lot of people can identify with, whom is publishing a book about his experiences? Is seduction intrinsically bad?

When the guide is written like a rape manual, yes, yes it is. It features quotes like: "Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick." (from: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... ) The whole thing is disgusting, degrading, and has no pl…

Are you saying you consider that "rape", even if the subjects were already kissing and fondling?

I wonder how many people outraged at this have explicitly asked for permission before every step of physical escalation in every one of their relationships.

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