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Government Digital Service Design Principles

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Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#71

Post by Nursie »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #68
Nursie wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so because we haven't got a full and complete legal framework and associated consensus driven moral framework in this area, we should just relax and give up on the whole idea? We already have data protection frameworks in the UK and at the EU level. I would like to see them adhered to in spirit, and I would also like to know that someone involved in the gov.uk has at least given this a moment's thought.

Clearly not give up. But we should have at least a clear idea of where we want the debate to go to. You say you want the DPA adhered to in spirit - great. It is adhered to in the letter of the law, and there are many interpretations of the spirit of that law. My view is that the spirit of the law needs to be codified for a new world, and it is healthier to have that clear (and so open for debate) than to say someone…

>> All digital communications and associated metadata are made in a public domain, and should have very limited expectations of privacy.

This is where we depart. Just because it is a public network does not mean that people somehow naturally consent to monitoring by anyone and everyone, nor that they should have to consent to this stuff. The telephone network is a good example of public and private infrastructure in which one still has the expectation of privacy.

>> If digital communication is encrypted, or marked as anonymous

And what if someone, mostly without notifying us, loads a script into our browser that tracks everything we do and reports back to mother?

This is not a case of people marking data private, nor is it 'digital communication' this is intrusion.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#72

Post by Nursie »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #70
Nursie wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I don't want everyone in the world to know everything about what I do with a computer? They're more and more part of everyone's life and not everyone is of the mindset that it doesn't matter if corporations and governments get to look at every little detail of their online interaction. Car tax, criminal law, the weekly shop at tesco.com ... all going to the profilers. I know this is happening. I know how to s…

yes, I know - but there is a difference between privacy and secrecy. Privacy is the things anyone can work out by looking at me, secrecy is the stuff I actively hide. The cost of breaching privacy on mass scale has dropped simply because now everyone publishes everything about themselves. Breaching secrecy is still a manual intensive effort as it eve has been.

People are not publishing this data willingly or knowingly.

That's your disconnect with reality.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#73

Post by Nursie »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #68
Nursie wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so because we haven't got a full and complete legal framework and associated consensus driven moral framework in this area, we should just relax and give up on the whole idea? We already have data protection frameworks in the UK and at the EU level. I would like to see them adhered to in spirit, and I would also like to know that someone involved in the gov.uk has at least given this a moment's thought.

Clearly not give up. But we should have at least a clear idea of where we want the debate to go to. You say you want the DPA adhered to in spirit - great. It is adhered to in the letter of the law, and there are many interpretations of the spirit of that law. My view is that the spirit of the law needs to be codified for a new world, and it is healthier to have that clear (and so open for debate) than to say someone…

Also why?

Why should we accept that the government will report everything about it's own citizens to anyone they feel like?

Because it makes it easier for a few web developers? Is that really a good enough reason?

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#74

Post by piqufoh »

snowwrestler wrote: post #62
piqufoh wrote: post #26

Great idea, lets hope it catches on. Unfortunately it seems like parts have been translated into 'trendy' - for example > Government should only do what only government can do. uh, what?

What is "trendy" about that? I don't see a single buzzword and the meaning is very clear to me.

OK we disagree, but let's hope the English language survives (though it seems the UK gov. isn't going to champion it).

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#75

Post by mbesto »

Nursie wrote: post #55
mbesto wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if they identify that "Jim English" has visited the MOT description website 10 times in the last month...so what? Google analytics for a publicly facing government website is akin to someone watching you walk physically into a public municipality.

Someone in another country, not subject to the same laws about how that sort of data is collected and used. Actually it's not even equivalent then. It's more like them recording the conversation you have with the public services folk. And you haven't actually gone there, just called on the phone.

recording the conversation

This is where I'm really failing to understand your logic. Your activity is very different from what you converse. If I fill out a web form and that data gets logged, fine, I can see how privacy may be an issue. Unless someone can correct me, Google analytics does not have that capability, it only tracks how you navigate.

If I walk around a public library and check out 6 books and someone follows me around watching me look at 6 books, then again I ask "so what?"

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#76

Post by mbesto »

Nursie wrote: post #54
hnriot wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just sounds like a paranoid rant. If you have a problem with it, either don't visit the site or block the analytics. The reason they are using it is pretty obvious, like everyone else that builds digital services, they want to look at how it gets used. It is a non issue, that's not pretending, it's just putting on a rational hat and taking off the silly rhetoric of paranoia. Personally, as someone who left the U…

>> It is a non issue, that's not pretending, it's just putting on a rational hat and taking off the silly rhetoric of paranoia. I'm glad you're happy to publish all the details of your interactions with government services to an advertising company in another country with far less in the way of data protection law. I'm not.

Curious, do you use any one of the following services:

Amazon

Google (and any service under it)

Facebook

eBay

?

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#77

Post by Nursie »

mbesto wrote: post #76
Nursie wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It is a non issue, that's not pretending, it's just putting on a rational hat and taking off the silly rhetoric of paranoia. I'm glad you're happy to publish all the details of your interactions with government services to an advertising company in another country with far less in the way of data protection law. I'm not.

Curious, do you use any one of the following services: Amazon Google (and any service under it) Facebook eBay ?

I use some of them.

None of them, however, is the UK government unnecessarily leaking details of my interactions across borders.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#78

Post by Nursie »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #69
chestnut-tree wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why does gov.uk, a site all about allowing the British public to interact with the British government, use google analytics?" I'd like an answer to this too from the .gov.uk team. Ironically enough, their service design manual (which is excelllent and a fantastic resource) has a very good section on analytics tools [1]. Some quotes: "When deciding which analytics tool is most appropriate for your service, you should…

To be quite honest, a month ago any of use would have said yes to all those for google analytics

Have you performed or read an analysis of this as it applies to GA then?

I'd love to read it.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#79

Post by Nursie »

mbesto wrote: post #75
Nursie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone in another country, not subject to the same laws about how that sort of data is collected and used. Actually it's not even equivalent then. It's more like them recording the conversation you have with the public services folk. And you haven't actually gone there, just called on the phone.

recording the conversation This is where I'm really failing to understand your logic. Your activity is very different from what you converse. If I fill out a web form and that data gets logged, fine, I can see how privacy may be an issue. Unless someone can correct me, Google analytics does not have that capability, it only tracks how you navigate. If I walk around a public library and check out 6 books and someone f…

In the largely broken analogy, you might phone the DVLA, ask to speak to a certain department (driver licenses, vehicle tax), then perform a specific task (apply for a new license). This maps to your navigation around the pages. Previously you would not really expect a third party in another country to be informed you were doing this, and I don't think it's necessary now.

>> If I walk around a public library and check out 6 books and someone follows me around watching me look at 6 books, then again I ask "so what?"

They compile a dossier on you, including everything you read, all of the shops you go to, food you like. They sell this data to whoever wants it and leak it out the back door to overseas government agencies.

But I guess you've nothing to hide from anyone eh? Good for you.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#80

Post by Nursie »

matthewcford wrote: post #58
Nursie wrote: post #28

If anyone from gov.uk is reading this, do you fancy answering the question I posed when the site was launched but never received an adequate answer to? Why does gov.uk, a site all about allowing the British public to interact with the British government, use google analytics? You are shipping all the data about all my interactions with my government off to a third party in another country. Another country that we kno…

gov.uk uses _anonymizeIp[1] so you do get some privacy there. [1] https://developers.google.com/analytics/devguides/collection...

My only issue with that is that you have to trust google to do it. The info is still transmitted (even if only in the form of the initial request to download ga.js) so we only have their word on the matter.
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