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Government Digital Service Design Principles

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Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#31

Post by Nursie »

jpswade wrote: post #30
Nursie wrote: post #28

If anyone from gov.uk is reading this, do you fancy answering the question I posed when the site was launched but never received an adequate answer to? Why does gov.uk, a site all about allowing the British public to interact with the British government, use google analytics? You are shipping all the data about all my interactions with my government off to a third party in another country. Another country that we kno…

This extends well beyond boundaries and governments. Google Analytics has become an industry standard.

Yes it has, and the sharing of site-visitor data with google on sites all over the web is something to be concerned about IMHO.

However, again IMHO, tracking casual web use is a different class of data to my interactions with my government, and I very much resent those being sent to foreign companies and (by inference) foreign powers, however benign and friendly our relationship is.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#32

Post by _mulder_ »

Nursie wrote: post #28

If anyone from gov.uk is reading this, do you fancy answering the question I posed when the site was launched but never received an adequate answer to? Why does gov.uk, a site all about allowing the British public to interact with the British government, use google analytics? You are shipping all the data about all my interactions with my government off to a third party in another country. Another country that we kno…

Unfortunately it's attitudes like this that usually end up making Government projects so eye-wateringly expensive.

Assuming they listen to your suggestion and act on it as you suggest, it seems the only option open to them is to design their own in-house (In UK for that matter) version of Google Analytics to do their own analysis. Regardless of the cost and time this would add to the project, it's unlikely that it would be anywhere as good as Google's offering.

The other, more likely, option would be to decide it's too expensive to implement a different, more complicated, solution; so they don't bother. They don't get the feedback and analysis on how to improve their services and the customer experience declines until you're back where you started with a poorly designed product offering hard-to-find information and people are posting angry comments on HackerNews about how bad gov.uk is and how they would never run a start-up like that... I'm almost certain someone would say "Why don't they use google analytics to improve things, like everyone else".

Instead, we need to be applauding a massive operation like Gov.uk for taking a dose of reality and thinking, "we're not doing anything amazingly special here, we're providing people with a quick way to check their council tax, or bin collection dates, or maybe pay their car tax. let's just get the job done as best we can."

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#33

Post by Samuel_Michon »

_mulder_ wrote: post #32
Nursie wrote: post #28

If anyone from gov.uk is reading this, do you fancy answering the question I posed when the site was launched but never received an adequate answer to? Why does gov.uk, a site all about allowing the British public to interact with the British government, use google analytics? You are shipping all the data about all my interactions with my government off to a third party in another country. Another country that we kno…

Unfortunately it's attitudes like this that usually end up making Government projects so eye-wateringly expensive. Assuming they listen to your suggestion and act on it as you suggest, it seems the only option open to them is to design their own in-house (In UK for that matter) version of Google Analytics to do their own analysis. Regardless of the cost and time this would add to the project, it's unlikely that it wo…

> the only option open to them is to design their own in-house (In UK for that matter) version of Google Analytics to do their own analysis.

They could just install Mint on their own servers. Problem solved.

http://www.haveamint.com/

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#34

Post by Nursie »

_mulder_ wrote: post #32
Nursie wrote: post #28

If anyone from gov.uk is reading this, do you fancy answering the question I posed when the site was launched but never received an adequate answer to? Why does gov.uk, a site all about allowing the British public to interact with the British government, use google analytics? You are shipping all the data about all my interactions with my government off to a third party in another country. Another country that we kno…

Unfortunately it's attitudes like this that usually end up making Government projects so eye-wateringly expensive. Assuming they listen to your suggestion and act on it as you suggest, it seems the only option open to them is to design their own in-house (In UK for that matter) version of Google Analytics to do their own analysis. Regardless of the cost and time this would add to the project, it's unlikely that it wo…

I'm sorry what? F*ck privacy, this way is more expedient? Is that what you're saying in effect?

That's not what I want from my government.

--edit-- I also didn't make any suggestions, I would have accepted a reasonable explanation of the legal and technological measures that were in place to protect my data from rampant proliferation through US corporate and government systems.

Instead I got (and this is a direct quote) "We don't allow Google to use or share our analytics data.", and a zendesk reference number. Fobbed off, basically.

And with the zendesk link, now my actual communication with a UK government team is being processed in the bay area.

This is unacceptable.

--edit 2-- Somehow other large UK web-based institutions manage without GA as well. The BBC for instance. Perhaps they could talk to each other.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#35

Post by lifeisstillgood »

_mulder_ wrote: post #32
Nursie wrote: post #28

If anyone from gov.uk is reading this, do you fancy answering the question I posed when the site was launched but never received an adequate answer to? Why does gov.uk, a site all about allowing the British public to interact with the British government, use google analytics? You are shipping all the data about all my interactions with my government off to a third party in another country. Another country that we kno…

Unfortunately it's attitudes like this that usually end up making Government projects so eye-wateringly expensive. Assuming they listen to your suggestion and act on it as you suggest, it seems the only option open to them is to design their own in-house (In UK for that matter) version of Google Analytics to do their own analysis. Regardless of the cost and time this would add to the project, it's unlikely that it wo…

I cannot upvote you as much as I want.

Yes, yes, yes. The only time we should consider these attitudes is when real keep it from everyone security matters (you know MI5 style security, not pentest security)

And frankly my view on that is now: want to keep a secret? Keep it away from computers.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#36

Post by tombrossman »

Nursie wrote: post #28

If anyone from gov.uk is reading this, do you fancy answering the question I posed when the site was launched but never received an adequate answer to? Why does gov.uk, a site all about allowing the British public to interact with the British government, use google analytics? You are shipping all the data about all my interactions with my government off to a third party in another country. Another country that we kno…

It is for these same reasons that I contacted Crimestoppers UK and asked them about their use of Google Analytics, especially on a site that is for 'anonymous' crime reporting.

They wrote back with a non-answer missing the point that they are voluntarily leaking crime victims' metadata to a US advertising company.

A site the size of gov.uk or crimestoppers.org.uk really cannot claim that they don't know how to switch to something like Piwik and keep the visitor data in-house and private.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#37

Post by mbesto »

Nursie wrote: post #34
_mulder_ wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it's attitudes like this that usually end up making Government projects so eye-wateringly expensive. Assuming they listen to your suggestion and act on it as you suggest, it seems the only option open to them is to design their own in-house (In UK for that matter) version of Google Analytics to do their own analysis. Regardless of the cost and time this would add to the project, it's unlikely that it wo…

I'm sorry what? F*ck privacy, this way is more expedient? Is that what you're saying in effect? That's not what I want from my government. --edit-- I also didn't make any suggestions, I would have accepted a reasonable explanation of the legal and technological measures that were in place to protect my data from rampant proliferation through US corporate and government systems. Instead I got (and this is a direct quo…

This is unacceptable.

Before you start the lynch mob, ask yourself this: what on earth can one do with non-person-identifiable data stored on a server?

"Next on BBC - Terrorist organisation finds out too many British people forget to update their MOTs"

That's not what I want from my government.

Be very very fortunate you can even get a somewhat usable site, much less a very user friendly site. There are citizens of the other nations that would kill for easier access to public information.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#38

Post by jpswade »

Nursie wrote: post #31
jpswade wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This extends well beyond boundaries and governments. Google Analytics has become an industry standard.

Yes it has, and the sharing of site-visitor data with google on sites all over the web is something to be concerned about IMHO. However, again IMHO, tracking casual web use is a different class of data to my interactions with my government, and I very much resent those being sent to foreign companies and (by inference) foreign powers, however benign and friendly our relationship is.

Let's not forget. Google is an international company, not "foreign". Google has servers and offices in the UK.

If you read the first point, it says "Start with needs". They need to be relevant and appear in Google. Google Analytics is simply a tool that helps them do that.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#39

Post by itneverends »

This typifies the problem with the web.

This website purports to be about data. But is it? Seems like lots of rambling about presentation of data.

A true open data initiative would start by providing an ftp link.

People can argue all day about how to present data. That's not about data. That's about something else.

First, just give us the data. Raw. In an open format (e.g. plain text). From there it can be massaged into a gazillion possibilities. Many people have many different visions of those possibilities.

Open data starts with providing the data. Not a lecture about "principles".

First, give us the data. Raw. Open format.

Re: Government Digital Service Design Principles

#40

Post by Nursie »

mbesto wrote: post #37
Nursie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry what? F*ck privacy, this way is more expedient? Is that what you're saying in effect? That's not what I want from my government. --edit-- I also didn't make any suggestions, I would have accepted a reasonable explanation of the legal and technological measures that were in place to protect my data from rampant proliferation through US corporate and government systems. Instead I got (and this is a direct quo…

This is unacceptable. Before you start the lynch mob, ask yourself this: what on earth can one do with non-person-identifiable data stored on a server? "Next on BBC - Terrorist organisation finds out too many British people forget to update their MOTs" That's not what I want from my government. Be very very fortunate you can even get a somewhat usable site, much less a very user friendly site. There are citizens of t…

>> Before you start the lynch mob, ask yourself this: what on earth can one do with non-person-identifiable data stored on a server?

How do we know it's non-person-identifiable? It's certainly clear that the analytics data comes from a set IP address, and when correlated with all the other data that big G collect from all over the web, who knows what can come out of it.

>> Be very very fortunate you can even get a somewhat usable site, much less a very user friendly site.

1. It's not just an information site. 2. Why should Google (and by extension the US government) be informed that I'm looking up (for instance) legal advice, business law or anything else?

Again, this is my interactions with my government being published to another nation.

--edit-- removed accusations of laziness, I'm sure the gov.uk folks aren't that.

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