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I Am Bradley Manning

iam.bradleymanning.org

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Re: I Am Bradley Manning

#11

Post by ekianjo »

mpyne wrote: post #3

1. I like how they attack the strawman with their "aiding the enemy" means "the public is the enemy?!?" claim. They were suspiciously quiet about the news OBL (presumably an enemy) had information leaked by Pfc. Manning. But I suppose propaganda techniques are only wrong when it's the government or McDonald's, eh? 2. Manning has explicitly been removed from death penalty consideration earlier in the trial process. Th…

mpyne, funny I see you a lot around these kind of topics these days :)

Anyway, you make good points. But regarding the Arab Spring, even if Manning was indeed a catalyst for these movements (which I highly doubt), having an uprising does not always lead to thousands of deaths. As you can see those who were responsible for the deaths in these countries were the government leaders who refused to listen to the crowd and sent the army and tanks instead of promoting dialog. The responsibility for these deaths is very clear and it would have nothing to do with Manning.

And your reference to the "invasion of Iraq" as "formation of democracy" is dubious at best. Installing a puppet Pro-US government is hardly anything democratic, and the elections process in Iraq have been showing many issues (threats on voters, fraud, etc...). Hardly a good example of a "democracy at work".

Re: I Am Bradley Manning

#13

Post by genwin »

mpyne wrote: post #3

1. I like how they attack the strawman with their "aiding the enemy" means "the public is the enemy?!?" claim. They were suspiciously quiet about the news OBL (presumably an enemy) had information leaked by Pfc. Manning. But I suppose propaganda techniques are only wrong when it's the government or McDonald's, eh? 2. Manning has explicitly been removed from death penalty consideration earlier in the trial process. Th…

If the 2003 invasion of Iraq was to establish democracy you'd have a point on #3. I'm still waiting for a leader of Iraq to be elected by its people.

Re: I Am Bradley Manning

#14

Post by mpyne »

streptomycin wrote: post #8
mpyne wrote: post #3

1. I like how they attack the strawman with their "aiding the enemy" means "the public is the enemy?!?" claim. They were suspiciously quiet about the news OBL (presumably an enemy) had information leaked by Pfc. Manning. But I suppose propaganda techniques are only wrong when it's the government or McDonald's, eh? 2. Manning has explicitly been removed from death penalty consideration earlier in the trial process. Th…

About 3... so you're saying that foreign aggression based on lies is morally equivalent to a local revolution as long as both ostensibly have some similarities in their end goals?

You if you can claim with a straight face that you'd trade 40,000 lives and a despot for a democracy, then what would your reasoning be to quibble about whether the results were achieved by local revolution or foreign aggression?

Do you think every Libyan who died was either for the regime or for the revolution? Many just wanted to live their lives and neither side spoke for them.

What does a "local revolution" even mean in a place like Iraq with sectarian tension all across the country? Most of the Iraqis who died were killed by other Iraqis, not by the U.S. So even if a local revolution had started the conflict in Iraq, do you think that local revolution would have been able to speak for every group with an interest in the stakes?

Re: I Am Bradley Manning

#15

Post by mpyne »

ekianjo wrote: post #11
mpyne wrote: post #3

1. I like how they attack the strawman with their "aiding the enemy" means "the public is the enemy?!?" claim. They were suspiciously quiet about the news OBL (presumably an enemy) had information leaked by Pfc. Manning. But I suppose propaganda techniques are only wrong when it's the government or McDonald's, eh? 2. Manning has explicitly been removed from death penalty consideration earlier in the trial process. Th…

mpyne, funny I see you a lot around these kind of topics these days :) Anyway, you make good points. But regarding the Arab Spring, even if Manning was indeed a catalyst for these movements (which I highly doubt), having an uprising does not always lead to thousands of deaths. As you can see those who were responsible for the deaths in these countries were the government leaders who refused to listen to the crowd and…

Think of it though, if I set a bomb somewhere and someone else tells you to walk over near it, that person bears some measure of responsibility as well, because they know the consequences that must result from a bomb detonation. If Manning is to take some of the credit for the Arab Spring then he must also bear some of the responsibility. You don't topple despots without bloodshed, so by all means take credit for your good deeds but don't try to weasel out of the negative effects you should also have known about. Of course, I don't know if Pfc. Manning himself even knows that people are making this claim for him, so I don't ascribe it to him personally.

In fairness to your latter point, we also call the U.S. a democracy despite the threads on voters, fraud, etc. ;)

Re: I Am Bradley Manning

#17

Post by mpyne »

genwin wrote: post #13
mpyne wrote: post #3

1. I like how they attack the strawman with their "aiding the enemy" means "the public is the enemy?!?" claim. They were suspiciously quiet about the news OBL (presumably an enemy) had information leaked by Pfc. Manning. But I suppose propaganda techniques are only wrong when it's the government or McDonald's, eh? 2. Manning has explicitly been removed from death penalty consideration earlier in the trial process. Th…

If the 2003 invasion of Iraq was to establish democracy you'd have a point on #3. I'm still waiting for a leader of Iraq to be elected by its people.

I'm not sure that even the neocons could tell you the actual reason they went to war. Only the WMD thing even made a bit of sense (in the aftermath of 9/11). But even most of the normal tinfoil theories (e.g. blood for oil) wouldn't have made practical sense. Puzzles me to this day.

Re: I Am Bradley Manning

#18

Post by ameister14 »

streptomycin wrote: post #8
mpyne wrote: post #3

1. I like how they attack the strawman with their "aiding the enemy" means "the public is the enemy?!?" claim. They were suspiciously quiet about the news OBL (presumably an enemy) had information leaked by Pfc. Manning. But I suppose propaganda techniques are only wrong when it's the government or McDonald's, eh? 2. Manning has explicitly been removed from death penalty consideration earlier in the trial process. Th…

About 3... so you're saying that foreign aggression based on lies is morally equivalent to a local revolution as long as both ostensibly have some similarities in their end goals?

Since unless a revolution succeeds it's morally wrong, yes, they can be morally equivalent.

Re: I Am Bradley Manning

#19

Post by genwin »

mpyne wrote: post #17
genwin wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the 2003 invasion of Iraq was to establish democracy you'd have a point on #3. I'm still waiting for a leader of Iraq to be elected by its people.

I'm not sure that even the neocons could tell you the actual reason they went to war. Only the WMD thing even made a bit of sense (in the aftermath of 9/11). But even most of the normal tinfoil theories (e.g. blood for oil) wouldn't have made practical sense. Puzzles me to this day.

$Trillions in war spending is sufficiently plausible reason for me.

Re: I Am Bradley Manning

#20

Post by ekianjo »

mpyne wrote: post #15
ekianjo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mpyne, funny I see you a lot around these kind of topics these days :) Anyway, you make good points. But regarding the Arab Spring, even if Manning was indeed a catalyst for these movements (which I highly doubt), having an uprising does not always lead to thousands of deaths. As you can see those who were responsible for the deaths in these countries were the government leaders who refused to listen to the crowd and…

Think of it though, if I set a bomb somewhere and someone else tells you to walk over near it, that person bears some measure of responsibility as well, because they know the consequences that must result from a bomb detonation. If Manning is to take some of the credit for the Arab Spring then he must also bear some of the responsibility. You don't topple despots without bloodshed, so by all means take credit for you…

> In fairness to your latter point, we also call the U.S. a democracy despite the threads on voters, fraud, etc. ;)

Democracy is not only about the election process. I was just highlighting the fact that you cannot even START a democracy if you do not have proper elections in the first place. The US may have issues as well but it's an established democracy for a number of other reasons and it would not stop being one unless drastic measures are taken against accepted civil liberties.

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