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Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

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Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#171

Post by cscurmudgeon »

Zigurd wrote: post #169
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever I say will be a repeat of what has been argued for thousands of years. Maybe the human mind is too limited to understand the core of itself.

> Maybe the human mind is too limited to understand the core of itself. That's one of those things that sounds potentially profound but if you consider the strange consequences of physics on the very nature of reality, the ability to ponder the big or the small or the strange doesn't seem to present a lot of barriers to scientific thought.

I am a physicist by training and I was a hard core reductionist. But then, reduction to physics is just another philosophical stance and not an inductively generated statement like the laws of physics. Also, induction (empirical not mathematical) is not fool proof like deduction.

Even if we arrive at a TOE, how do we justify that the universe will always obey those laws in the future? Physical reductionism is easy to understand but upon closer inspection seems to lack a strong foundation.

Also, the laws of physics have zero consequence on logic and mathematics upon which the enterprise of physics rests on along with empirical data.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#172

Post by kryten »

michaelgrafl wrote: post #170
kryten wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an apt description of what we are. Only we think we are more. Perhaps we're not and the thought is just part of that feedback loop. Art, wine, music, maths. It's all just more inputs...

It's a marginal description of what we are. It takes a true nerd living in a nerd bubble to interpret a human being as a data processing device.

I think you mean your perception is that my description is marginal, which is my point.

We're just maths if you go far enough down. So are machines.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#173

Post by gnoway »

mtowle wrote: post #163
gnoway wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, mtowle means 'them' as in 'the humans,' i.e. omnis will go to prison, be killed or endure some other form of violent punishment if caught eating meat. Good luck with that. Maybe it happens, but I'm not holding my breath.

No I don't. I mean there's no point in extending a protection if you're just going to take it right back. > To clarify... I recommend not doing this again.

I agree. Don't try to help anyone understand my comments either.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#174

Post by aet »

oftenwrong wrote: post #101
aet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That being said, some people argue that there exist "objective moral values"

I think that argument depends on a certain definition of "objective". A professor of mine argued that there are objective moral values because that there are certain actions that basically all people consider wrong. For example, killing an innocent person for fun. Under his definition, that would be an objectively immoral action.

The notion of objective moral values is that the "right" moral values exist independent of humans and the human mind. (I think.) It is usually a position held by religious types like William Lane Craig.

See debate on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqaHXKLRKzg

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#175

Post by codezero »

gregsq wrote: post #11
codezero wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that correlation implies causation, but as of yet, consciousness is only considered in creatures which also recognize morality.

Not recognised as you say, except by the signatories of this on July 7th 2012. http://fcmconference.org/img/CambridgeDeclarationOnConscious...

very interesting, thanks!
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