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'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

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Re: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

#51

Post by dasil003 »

woodchuck64 wrote: post #37
dasil003 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don't recognize the difference between one infinitesimal and another? The fact that they may be orders of magnitude difference, thereby implying that the amount of collateral damage may be significantly higher than any benefit to society?

If you are arguing for more government eavesdropping, I would point out that terrorism is a failed political strategy on the decline even without help from government programs. If you are arguing for less government eavesdropping, I would need to see evidence, first, that there is some sort of real danger. I don't share the libertarian presumption that government is by definition malicious and incompetent.

The point is not to argue either, it's the essential absurdity of your statement without concrete values.

Re: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

#53

Post by dasil003 »

I'm all for bringing the most reasoned arguments to bear, but what I think we need immediately are the best way of explaining this to the apathetic and people who buy into the argument by default. We need sound bites, we need tweets and FB messages, we need short commentary that cuts to the heart of the issue in a way that can wake people up.

I'm not big into politics, but seeing the apathy in the media and general ignorance of the populace is utterly terrifying. This can only be fixed if we can get a real bi-partisan movement going (which, given the facts, should be a no-brainer) and find a way to counter the fear-based rhetoric that is so easy to package in digestible sound bites for middle America to swallow. Even Ira Glass, from This American Life, who clearly should be better informed was totally "meh" on the issue in the last episode. How can we get people to wake up?

Re: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

#54

Post by temp453463343 »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #34
temp453463343 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This means that if you piss off wrong people you're going to jail." Except that's not the reality. The reality is that if Obama really really hates someone and wants to make their life miserable, the most he can do it make it hard for him to fly (ie. the no-fly list). The government is constrained in what it can do, surveillance and omniscience doesn't change that.

I don't know what rock you've been hiding under, but that's not even close to accurate. Inspections, vague public statements, IRS audits, being followed everywhere, having all your friends "interviewed", being stopped and having your car searched, all your cash confiscated; these things have been used before by the government. As have being killed by a drone. The Church of Scientology has quite a record of effective…

Confiscating your cash would need to be done with some kinda of judicial order, so it's not up to the president or someone who you "pissed off"

The drone killing is a seriously disturbing precedent, but with the backlash that's happened I think you won't be seeing that again (at least I hope).

The rest of your examples are definitely tools at the disposal of the executive branch, but they're on the same order of being put on the no fly list (the no-fly-list was more of an illustrative example than a definitive list of what the government can do). Annoying, but not at all equivalent at all to being jailed (as the parent comment stated).

Re: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

#55

Post by temp453463343 »

kaoD wrote: post #42
temp453463343 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This means that if you piss off wrong people you're going to jail." Except that's not the reality. The reality is that if Obama really really hates someone and wants to make their life miserable, the most he can do it make it hard for him to fly (ie. the no-fly list). The government is constrained in what it can do, surveillance and omniscience doesn't change that.

So the economic crisis finally rocks the US to its foundation. A charismatic but authoritarian leader surfaces (let's name him... I don't know, Hutlor?). Common populace vote him out of desperation based on his promises to bring back US to its place in the world. A few months later Hutlor shows his true face, the government radicalizes and becomes violent. Hutlor's party does NOT like homosexuals. He does not like pe…

Yeah, if you think the US is going to go fascist you're living in a fantasy land. You wouldn't just need a depression, you would need the whole fabric of society to unravel and become as poor as pre WW2 Germany.

No country with a high GDP has turned authoritarian. Authoritarianism doesn't work in wealthy countries.

Re: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

#56

Post by woodchuck64 »

dasil003 wrote: post #51
woodchuck64 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are arguing for more government eavesdropping, I would point out that terrorism is a failed political strategy on the decline even without help from government programs. If you are arguing for less government eavesdropping, I would need to see evidence, first, that there is some sort of real danger. I don't share the libertarian presumption that government is by definition malicious and incompetent.

The point is not to argue either, it's the essential absurdity of your statement without concrete values.

Concrete numbers would be nice if we had them, but the values offered by true believers are not data driven. In the meantime, I will continue not worrying about getting hit by lightning and, simultaneously, not worry about being eaten by a shark even though one is probably riskier. That seems reasonable to me when there are higher risk things to worry about.

Re: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

#57

Post by short_circut »

temp453463343 wrote: post #55
kaoD wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the economic crisis finally rocks the US to its foundation. A charismatic but authoritarian leader surfaces (let's name him... I don't know, Hutlor?). Common populace vote him out of desperation based on his promises to bring back US to its place in the world. A few months later Hutlor shows his true face, the government radicalizes and becomes violent. Hutlor's party does NOT like homosexuals. He does not like pe…

Yeah, if you think the US is going to go fascist you're living in a fantasy land. You wouldn't just need a depression, you would need the whole fabric of society to unravel and become as poor as pre WW2 Germany. No country with a high GDP has turned authoritarian. Authoritarianism doesn't work in wealthy countries.

Japanese internment camps were not a fantasy land. The US exhibits fascist qualities all the time. We don't usually call it that but there are certainly examples which could be considered that way.

Re: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

#58

Post by temp453463343 »

short_circut wrote: post #57
temp453463343 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if you think the US is going to go fascist you're living in a fantasy land. You wouldn't just need a depression, you would need the whole fabric of society to unravel and become as poor as pre WW2 Germany. No country with a high GDP has turned authoritarian. Authoritarianism doesn't work in wealthy countries.

Japanese internment camps were not a fantasy land. The US exhibits fascist qualities all the time. We don't usually call it that but there are certainly examples which could be considered that way.

You mean back when people thought blacks were less human than white and women didn't have the right to vote? Back when a depression meant people starving to death?

We're not the same society we were back in the 1940s.

Re: 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [pdf]

#59

Post by nwhitehead »

baddox wrote: post #46
hga wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but you can also fill in the blank with "the well armed populace". Maybe not anyone you know, but at least half of the nation, 300+ million guns and more every day. Heck, 2/3rds of the nation lives in shall issue concealed carry regimes, with well over 8 million licenses granted. This puts constraints on a would be out of control government. Let us hope we don't have to file a claim on this insurance policy.

Well, sure, there's always the armed populace, but that is inherently illegal rebellion against the government, and it would be violently resisted by the government. (And, for the record, almost everyone I know owns guns, and that percentage was even higher before I moved to San Francisco.) But even though founding fathers wrote about the inevitability and even duty to violently resist an oppressive government, that'…

You're wrong. The constitutions of New Hampshire, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Texas allow for the people to abolish the government.
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