Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

ieet.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 175 posts

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#151

Post by scotty79 »

phil_s_stein wrote: post #68
scotty79 wrote: post #64

I think we are fairly close to achieving consciousness in silicon (graphene or whatever). We will improve algorithms, increase computing power and achieve system of consciousness of a mouse, then just by tossing in more computing power and optimizing speed of algorithms one of consciousness of a dog, then monkey, then human and then we'll be surprised that when we toss in even more computing power we'll get even more…

Hello and welcome to AI research in 1960!

Deep learning wouldn't fly on vacuum tubes.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#152

Post by scotty79 »

macca321 wrote: post #97
Swizec wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another part to this story. We have brought animals back from the brink of extinction purely because someone realised they were really tasty. A lot of our domestic animals, in particular, wouldn't even be able to survive without us ... but they're tasty, so we make them live, breed them in large numbers, feed them, etc. Isn't that what biologists call symbiosis?

I think I'd rather be extinct than be a battery hen.

Your genes don't care.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#153

Post by scotty79 »

ggreer wrote: post #42

If I had to wager money on what future societies would condemn us for, I'd bet a lot on our treatment of animals. Even if other highly-encephalized animals aren't conscious, they are still open to a wide range of experiences that we can empathize with. They can learn and play. They feel hunger and pain. Some species can even form friendships and mourn the passing of their kin. Despite all indications that our treatme…

Come on! We just recently sort of came to agree that watching people getting tortured is not the best kind of fun. Give us few centuries to manufacture something tastier.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#154

Post by loceng »

tehwalrus wrote: post #134
loceng wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the U.S.? Just because people are disconnected from the actions of their military doesn't mean they're not responsible

Sure, the US too. But they don't put hundreds of thousands of citizens in jail just for voicing decent, and then work/starve them to death. NK is my go-to example of an evil government, doesn't mean there aren't other ones. I'd add to the people replying to this comment, about US citizens' responsibility, they have more responsibility than the average North Korean citizen, but not much. From what I understand, challe…

There are other ways to suppress when you control the mass media, and as far I know they do put lots of people temporarily in jail for voicing decent / showing up to peaceful protests.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#155

Post by gnoway »

mtowle wrote: post #131
i_cannot_hack wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you equating consciousness with rationality and intelligence?

Literally nobody has ever done that. Try understanding his comment a different way. Like, say, that the human protections against violence preclude humans who chose to act violently, ergo if we extend that protection to animals, many of them would lose that protection as soon as it was extended to them.

To clarify, mtowle means 'them' as in 'the humans,' i.e. omnis will go to prison, be killed or endure some other form of violent punishment if caught eating meat.

Good luck with that. Maybe it happens, but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#156

Post by tladendo »

IanDrake wrote: post #145
tladendo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At present, ethically-raised animal meat is not practical on a mass scale. Also, this is a ridiculous justification for meat eating, since lions cannot reason about morality.

>Also, this is a ridiculous justification for meat eating, since lions cannot reason about morality. I'm unclear what level of moral justification is needed. I want to survive. There are weaker animals for me to eat. My gut can process their meat. My teeth can rip their flesh. I guess I haven't transcended nature and evolution the way vegetarians have.

>> I'm unclear what level of moral justification is needed. I want to survive. There are weaker animals for me to eat.

These two statements do not have a direct and necessary relationship, since "eating weaker animals" is not required for our survival or health. Also, you must be a nihilist if you think your actions do not require moral justification. Ethical vegetarians have not and do not claim to have "transcended" anything, and are simply following the dictates of their consciences. Most people, I think, believe that it is wrong to cause unprovoked suffering in another being (who can suffer); ethical vegetarians are just a subset of this group who are more consistent in keeping their actions true to this moral axiom.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#157

Post by oftenwrong »

sologoub wrote: post #107
oftenwrong wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every taxpayer is partly responsible for funding the actions of their country's military.

So what do you propose as an alternative to this? Not paying isn't really an option. Move and renounce citizenship? (Remember, US has global taxation for citizen.) Not really a viable option to affect change, as you lose your right to vote, etc.

I do not think there is a nice alternative. I think we should accept that we share some responsibility for the actions of our home countries. If a political group could organize enough people to withhold their tax payments as part of a protest against a certain military action, that might cause enough of a disruption to stop it. Alternatively, it might just get everyone involved thrown in prison.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#158

Post by oftenwrong »

zxcdw wrote: post #105
oftenwrong wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every taxpayer is partly responsible for funding the actions of their country's military.

Funding someone does not make one responsile a single bit. I am not responsible for an act you do with the knife I sold you last week, unless I did it in consent of you commiting the act. My parents aren't responsible for the acts I do. Only when there's power, there's responsibility. Taxpayer does not have power over military, hence why taxpayer has no responsibility.

I see it differently. Without the tax money, the military could not operate. When I choose to pay our taxes, I am choosing to give money in support of the military's operations. I may disagree with the military's actions, but I choose supporting them (a little bit) over putting my life at risk by not paying. In that case it is a lose-lose situation.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#159

Post by gems »

alokm wrote: post #66
scotty79 wrote: post #64

I think we are fairly close to achieving consciousness in silicon (graphene or whatever). We will improve algorithms, increase computing power and achieve system of consciousness of a mouse, then just by tossing in more computing power and optimizing speed of algorithms one of consciousness of a dog, then monkey, then human and then we'll be surprised that when we toss in even more computing power we'll get even more…

Consciousness is not solely a matter of computation. Even if we are able to simulate the brains of lesser beings, doesnt necessarily mean that there will be self awareness in the simulation. I think this is one area where we still have a lot of catching up to do.

"Consciousness is not solely a matter of computation."

How do you know that?

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#160

Post by vacri »

kryten wrote: post #137
vacri wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of perfectly nutritious vegetable matter that humans won't eat - it's a false equivalence you're making.

Unless you suddenly find a conscious cabbage or an onion with an opinion.

What you describe isn't about consciousness on the part of the eaten, it's about psychological interaction on the part of the eater. Most westerners aren't going to be happy eating moss they've seen you scrape off a wall either.
Post reply on HN