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Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

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Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#121

Post by Sevores »

mgkimsal wrote: post #113
wavefunction wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really unfamiliar with iOS but it blows my mind that this doesn't exist already. It seems like a no-brainer for a feature, especially since Apple basically invented the modern mobile app store.

I'm wary of this. Would like it as an option, but I don't necessarily want my app to change between uses, especially if it's something I need to use quickly. Loading up something with a changed UI, or data changes that need to happen, or whatever, when I wasn't expecting it.... won't make me a happy camper. A notification and ability to trigger the update from in the app would be nice, and having the option of 'auto…

There is a notification and you can opt-out.

Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#122

Post by stonemetal »

zimpenfish wrote: post #101
tolmasky wrote: post #44

Here's an idea: show me the top lists without the apps I already own! Why do I need to see Mountain Lion at the top of the App Store constantly in the #1 position? Just so I can know how little Mac Software gets sold and completely dissuade me from ever considering writing Mac software again? EIGHT of the top 10 apps are Apple apps. Most of which people probably already own (I happen to own all of them). Is this the…

A friend suggested that once. He unsuggested it after I walked through the umpteen problems involved in implementing this over hundreds of millions of accounts.

Really? Sounds like about 20 seconds to throw a database query together to generate the list. Cache it until the user makes a purchase or we redo the statistics. If you consider the work involved in generating the top 10 list a per user filter is next to nothing in added computation time. Especially since it is just a marketing tool not something that needs to be updated in real time.

Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#124

Post by melling »

mjolk wrote: post #109
melling wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now if you could only remind the 500 million other iOS users. Discovery needs to be better. Most people aren't going to dig. If my girlfriend wants an app that she's heard about, I've got to install it for her. Guess who updates the apps on her phone? :-( It's gotta be real easy for most people.

I'm sure your girlfriend is capable of searching for apps on her own.

Sure, but she's not really a big user beyond playing Words with Friends, email, the weather, and using it as a phone.

I think you're failing to grasp that many normal people don't really want to go that deep with technology. People really do want simple.

Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#125

Post by zimpenfish »

stonemetal wrote: post #122
zimpenfish wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend suggested that once. He unsuggested it after I walked through the umpteen problems involved in implementing this over hundreds of millions of accounts.

Really? Sounds like about 20 seconds to throw a database query together to generate the list. Cache it until the user makes a purchase or we redo the statistics. If you consider the work involved in generating the top 10 list a per user filter is next to nothing in added computation time. Especially since it is just a marketing tool not something that needs to be updated in real time.

Now you've gone from "find the top 10, cache it once" to "find the top 10 200M times, cache it 200M times" (and 200M is lower than you need.)

Say you find the top 500 apps instead and cache that. You still have to iterate over that 200M times, looking up each users list of apps (~50-100 on the average, I have 400+ in my list), intersecting them, making sure there's still a top 10, and caching the results.

Either way, you've done a load of work - that needs development, maintenance, testing - to gain what?

The app store is already making billions for Apple with "flawed" top 10s. You might gain a few 10s of millions by implementing this scheme. What's the point?

Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#126

Post by zimpenfish »

thwarted wrote: post #105
zimpenfish wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend suggested that once. He unsuggested it after I walked through the umpteen problems involved in implementing this over hundreds of millions of accounts.

This is solved in a distributed fashion. The end user machines know which apps they have, and the ordering of the top 11 doesn't change if you already have the first one. So you ship down identifiers for top 20 or 50, which, even with metadata, is going to be smaller, bytewise, than the average apple.com homepage. When you go to display them, you remove the ones the user has and display the top 10 of the remaining se…

Why do you want to ship more data to the client - which they're paying for, btw - to solve a problem that most of them seem to not care the blindest bit about? And why do more work on the server side when you don't have to?

I appreciate there's a nerdy "IT MUST BE CORRECT" aspect to this but Apple are making billions - why would they bother doing work and creating potential support problems for themselves to gain maybe a fraction of a percent more?

Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#127

Post by zimpenfish »

tehwalrus wrote: post #103
zimpenfish wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend suggested that once. He unsuggested it after I walked through the umpteen problems involved in implementing this over hundreds of millions of accounts.

As a user-side filter, this is actually not that difficult to implement (assuming the device caches the list of purchased app ids for the current iTunes account, or even easier just the apps that are already installed on this device). It means it'll take multiple requests to get all the results, sure, but if you weigh the initial request statistically (for the first 10, I think we'll need 12..) and so on, you can avo…

Multiple requests that the client is paying for over a possibly flaky network connection and now you have to handle all sorts of edge cases and errors that you didn't before.

Why bother?

Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#128

Post by andyakb »

zimpenfish wrote: post #125
stonemetal wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Sounds like about 20 seconds to throw a database query together to generate the list. Cache it until the user makes a purchase or we redo the statistics. If you consider the work involved in generating the top 10 list a per user filter is next to nothing in added computation time. Especially since it is just a marketing tool not something that needs to be updated in real time.

Now you've gone from "find the top 10, cache it once" to "find the top 10 200M times, cache it 200M times" (and 200M is lower than you need.) Say you find the top 500 apps instead and cache that. You still have to iterate over that 200M times, looking up each users list of apps (~50-100 on the average, I have 400+ in my list), intersecting them, making sure there's still a top 10, and caching the results. Either way,…

...the point is to gets 10s of millions. Simply because they are already making a lot does not mean they should avoid optimizations. If they had that attitude, they would have "stopped" at whatever number was deemed to be enough. "Why make X change, they are already makings 100s of millions with the appstore?" A business's goal is to maximize profit. This is a clear option that has minimal costs in comparison to the returns that even you recognized. You are trying too hard not to be wrong.

Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#129

Post by stonemetal »

zimpenfish wrote: post #125
stonemetal wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Sounds like about 20 seconds to throw a database query together to generate the list. Cache it until the user makes a purchase or we redo the statistics. If you consider the work involved in generating the top 10 list a per user filter is next to nothing in added computation time. Especially since it is just a marketing tool not something that needs to be updated in real time.

Now you've gone from "find the top 10, cache it once" to "find the top 10 200M times, cache it 200M times" (and 200M is lower than you need.) Say you find the top 500 apps instead and cache that. You still have to iterate over that 200M times, looking up each users list of apps (~50-100 on the average, I have 400+ in my list), intersecting them, making sure there's still a top 10, and caching the results. Either way,…

They are already tracking what the user owns, what the user has installed on the device, and needs to be updated on each device the user owns, hell if you have genius turned on they track how much you use each app, or listen to each song. But whoa buddy filtering a top ten list is way to hard?

to gain what To not annoy users and gain a little bit more of that perfection they are known for. Increase purchases by a few percent. Not striving hard when you are at the top is how you end up in MS, IBM, and every other fallen giant's shoes.

Re: Get Rid of the App Store’s “Top” Lists

#130

Post by stonemetal »

tolmasky wrote: post #44

Here's an idea: show me the top lists without the apps I already own! Why do I need to see Mountain Lion at the top of the App Store constantly in the #1 position? Just so I can know how little Mac Software gets sold and completely dissuade me from ever considering writing Mac software again? EIGHT of the top 10 apps are Apple apps. Most of which people probably already own (I happen to own all of them). Is this the…

I think Apple should keep their software out of the top 10, but I think there is a bit of social reinforcement by having stuff you own in the top 10. You can feel like a taste maker if you got an app before it made it to the top 10, feel like part of the in crowd because you own 1, 2, and 3 etc. Editorial list? Sure filter the heck out of it.
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