Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness • Hacker News Board

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#71

Post by martingoodson » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:02 PM UTC

smosher wrote: post #60

stiff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no philosophical definition of consciousness, but there is none of gravity either, in the sense of "what gravity really is". Science doesn't examine what things "really are", but tries to make useful predictions and the definitions employed are only means to this end. In fact there are operational definitions of consciousness and I think they certainly deserve to be called "scientific", see for example: http…

The problem is without any philosophical backup the neural correlate is entirely uncompelling—it's merely a clinical definition of a measure of... nothing meaningful. One that can be just as easily applied to a recording device, modulo the explicit mention of neurons. It gets worse. When you look at it closely there's no useful reason to restrict any of these measures with arbitrary criteria to the things we consider…

What's "philosophical backup"? Scientists normally get by without any help from philosophers, so why do they need to get philosophers' imprimatur before they can use the concept of 'consciousness'?

Why doesn't the concept of, say, 'the gene' also need this backup? Or maybe all of those geneticists are also stumbling around in the dark without philosophers to guide them...

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#72

Post by EthanHeilman » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:03 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #22

cristianpascu wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will not. "Hurting" is such a meaningless word nowadays.

The day we stop kidnapping, murdering and eating animals will be the day we stop kidnapping and murdering each other? I honestly don't think the "animals have conscious thought" is the most effective way to change agriculture, but I will struggle to deny that gorilla whose eyes I looked into at Aspinalls was not looking back at me with the same understanding and knowledge. Yes they are as conscious and thoughtful as…

We are animals certainly but there is strong evidence that complex vertebrates (humans, big cats, etc) can adapt behavior from prior experience. It's a pretty big stretch to claim that we are unthinking and hard-wired.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#73

Post by sethbannon » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:04 PM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #42

If I had to wager money on what future societies would condemn us for, I'd bet a lot on our treatment of animals. Even if other highly-encephalized animals aren't conscious, they are still open to a wide range of experiences that we can empathize with. They can learn and play. They feel hunger and pain. Some species can even form friendships and mourn the passing of their kin. Despite all indications that our treatme…

Couldn't agree with you more. Upwards of 60 billion animals are slaughtered for human consumption each year[1]. The scale of it is mind-boggling. We just recently agreed on vegetarian team lunches at my startup to do our small part.

[1] according to http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Rights-Current-Debates-Directio...

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#74

Post by Carwajalca » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:08 PM UTC

zxcdw wrote: post #65

loceng wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the U.S.? Just because people are disconnected from the actions of their military doesn't mean they're not responsible

They are not responsible for the actions of the military. Just because they are born in US doesn't make them responsible for the actions of the US military any more than someoe born in Canada, Brazil or Japan. People who have power over the actions taken are responsible, pretty much the person itself and also the higher chain of command for the said person who commits whatever act to be held responsible for.

The military gets orders from politicians who get elected by US citizens.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#75

Post by stiff » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:11 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #64

I think we are fairly close to achieving consciousness in silicon (graphene or whatever). We will improve algorithms, increase computing power and achieve system of consciousness of a mouse, then just by tossing in more computing power and optimizing speed of algorithms one of consciousness of a dog, then monkey, then human and then we'll be surprised that when we toss in even more computing power we'll get even more…

I think we are fairly close to achieving consciousness in silicon.

It would be nice if you presented at least one reason for believing this.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#76

Post by leoedin » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:13 PM UTC

RivieraKid wrote: post #63

stephengillie wrote: post #45

There's nothing sacred about machine learning, machine vision & feedback loops, assembled into robots. This is what we are.

No, machines cannot feel pain.

Pain is a feedback sensor which indicates that something's gone wrong. You could build a machine with pressure sensitive grippers. You could even place a threshold on that, above which the machine reacted by moving in the opposite direction. Biological pain is just a complicated version of that. Pain is just our minds interpretation of damage signals.

At what point do you draw the line. "This machine doesn't feel pain, it just responds to damage signals." could apply to a simple robot or a cockroach. At some point, biological computers become complicated enough that we deem pain to have arrived, but that point is fairly arbitrary. Why aren't we just biological machines?

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#77

Post by Swizec » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:14 PM UTC

ggreer wrote: post #42

If I had to wager money on what future societies would condemn us for, I'd bet a lot on our treatment of animals. Even if other highly-encephalized animals aren't conscious, they are still open to a wide range of experiences that we can empathize with. They can learn and play. They feel hunger and pain. Some species can even form friendships and mourn the passing of their kin. Despite all indications that our treatme…

There's another part to this story. We have brought animals back from the brink of extinction purely because someone realised they were really tasty. A lot of our domestic animals, in particular, wouldn't even be able to survive without us ... but they're tasty, so we make them live, breed them in large numbers, feed them, etc.

Isn't that what biologists call symbiosis?

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#78

Post by lifty » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:16 PM UTC

zxcdw wrote: post #65

loceng wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the U.S.? Just because people are disconnected from the actions of their military doesn't mean they're not responsible

They are not responsible for the actions of the military. Just because they are born in US doesn't make them responsible for the actions of the US military any more than someoe born in Canada, Brazil or Japan. People who have power over the actions taken are responsible, pretty much the person itself and also the higher chain of command for the said person who commits whatever act to be held responsible for.

I think they do take responsibility, just not as much as those people higher up the power ladder.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#79

Post by Carwajalca » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:19 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #77

ggreer wrote: post #42

If I had to wager money on what future societies would condemn us for, I'd bet a lot on our treatment of animals. Even if other highly-encephalized animals aren't conscious, they are still open to a wide range of experiences that we can empathize with. They can learn and play. They feel hunger and pain. Some species can even form friendships and mourn the passing of their kin. Despite all indications that our treatme…

There's another part to this story. We have brought animals back from the brink of extinction purely because someone realised they were really tasty. A lot of our domestic animals, in particular, wouldn't even be able to survive without us ... but they're tasty, so we make them live, breed them in large numbers, feed them, etc. Isn't that what biologists call symbiosis?

Wolves do fairly well without humans, bees as well. Which animals did we bring back from the brink of extinction? I'll admit that new subspecies have emerged thanks to humans, but we hardly need to keep e.g. 1.3 billion cows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle#Population) just to save the species from extinction.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#80

Post by Zigurd » Tue, Jun 18, 2013, 1:23 PM UTC

alokm wrote: post #66

scotty79 wrote: post #64

I think we are fairly close to achieving consciousness in silicon (graphene or whatever). We will improve algorithms, increase computing power and achieve system of consciousness of a mouse, then just by tossing in more computing power and optimizing speed of algorithms one of consciousness of a dog, then monkey, then human and then we'll be surprised that when we toss in even more computing power we'll get even more…

Consciousness is not solely a matter of computation. Even if we are able to simulate the brains of lesser beings, doesnt necessarily mean that there will be self awareness in the simulation. I think this is one area where we still have a lot of catching up to do.

What process takes place in your cranium that does not take place in a petri dish containing some of your brain cells?