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Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

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51–60 of 175 posts

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#51
post #3

Does this mean they know right from wrong? The article isn't very clear on what conscious awareness means.

Right and wrong are subjective to humans.

They stem from evolution of social animals. Monkeys know right from wrong. They know when they've been taken advantage of.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#52

Well, that's interesting, because there's no good scientific definition of consciousness.

There is no philosophical definition of consciousness, but there is none of gravity either, in the sense of "what gravity really is". Science doesn't examine what things "really are", but tries to make useful predictions and the definitions employed are only means to this end. In fact there are operational definitions of consciousness and I think they certainly deserve to be called "scientific", see for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness#Neural_correlate...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness#Defining_conscio...

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#53

There's nothing sacred about machine learning, machine vision & feedback loops, assembled into robots. This is what we are.

Machine learning might be a useful model of what happens in the brain but just like the map isn't the territory this doesn't make us robots, what would that even mean? Everything aside, biological systems are completely different than everything we have ever built and so far it seems current machine learning techniques not necessarily have to have much to do with what happens in the brain.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#55
This is great news. Now that we've proven the animals are conscious, we can put more resources into communicating and reasoning with them, and convince them to stop maiming, killing and eating each other. Peace on Earth, maybe within our lifetimes!

Edit:

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#56
post #52

Well, that's interesting, because there's no good scientific definition of consciousness.

There is no philosophical definition of consciousness, but there is none of gravity either, in the sense of "what gravity really is". Science doesn't examine what things "really are", but tries to make useful predictions and the definitions employed are only means to this end. In fact there are operational definitions of consciousness and I think they certainly deserve to be called "scientific", see for example: http…

No they are not. Omitting qualia disqualifies almost all existing models of consciousness. One of the only ones I know that attempt an explanation of this phenomenon may be Tononi's IIT [1], but it is of course criticised for being too broad a definition.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Information_Theory

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#57
post #55

This is great news. Now that we've proven the animals are conscious, we can put more resources into communicating and reasoning with them, and convince them to stop maiming, killing and eating each other. Peace on Earth, maybe within our lifetimes! Edit:

Are you equating consciousness with rationality and intelligence?

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#58

There's nothing sacred about machine learning, machine vision & feedback loops, assembled into robots. This is what we are.

No, that's a crass abstraction of what we are.

To a philistine the Mona Lisa is nothing but a bunch of pigments applied to a surface. That's what makes him a philistine, after all.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#59
post #55

This is great news. Now that we've proven the animals are conscious, we can put more resources into communicating and reasoning with them, and convince them to stop maiming, killing and eating each other. Peace on Earth, maybe within our lifetimes! Edit:

There's a big difference between a declaration and a proof.

Re: Prominent Scientists Sign Declaration that Animals have Conscious Awareness

#60
post #52

Well, that's interesting, because there's no good scientific definition of consciousness.

There is no philosophical definition of consciousness, but there is none of gravity either, in the sense of "what gravity really is". Science doesn't examine what things "really are", but tries to make useful predictions and the definitions employed are only means to this end. In fact there are operational definitions of consciousness and I think they certainly deserve to be called "scientific", see for example: http…

The problem is without any philosophical backup the neural correlate is entirely uncompelling—it's merely a clinical definition of a measure of... nothing meaningful. One that can be just as easily applied to a recording device, modulo the explicit mention of neurons.

It gets worse. When you look at it closely there's no useful reason to restrict any of these measures with arbitrary criteria to the things we consider candidates for consciousness, other than to reaffirm our prejudices.

In other words, there's no such thing as a good scientific definition without the philosophical context. You can have as accurate an arbitrary measure as you like, but that doesn't imbue it equally arbitrarily with your desired meaning.

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