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NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

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Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#51

Post by malkia »

btilly wrote: post #42
dfc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overwhelming majority of your post but I have to say the draft dodging/deferring comment was a little odd. I think its really tough for us (people who have grown up under an all volunteer service) to pass judgement on how a previous generation dealt with the draft, even more so if we pass those judgements as civilians.

I have never served in the military. But I am old enough that my brother fought in Vietnam (sort of not drafted, it is complicated) and my father was drafted for WW II. I also have relatives serving in the armed forces. (Including, at the moment, 2 nephews.) I have observed what I've seen commented on elsewhere. There is a certain type of person who managed to skip the draft for themselves, and then proceeded to beco…

There was a democrat several years ago that wanted to put back the draft in place - e.g. mandatory military service. The idea was that since lots of republicans/democrats have kids and this would made them think again for going to war.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#52

Post by jeremyflores »

dfc wrote: post #49
jeremyflores wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Cheney's draft dodging status is fair game. He did, after all, co-architect our erroneous invasion and continued occupation of a country that did not actually attack us, so he has no problem sending others to war. Something other draft dodgers were not as directly responsible for.

I think the discussion our society is having is important. I do not think we should spend time trying to score ancillary points because something is "fair game." Are Cheney's positions on PRISM really dependent on his service record? Would you be more inclined to agree and support them if they were put forward by Bob Kerrey? More generally should we only elect candidates who have also served so that we can avoid havi…

As I mentioned in response to davidhollander, Cheney's personal background is extremely important. If Kerry came out in support of PRISM et al., that would absolutely give me some pause--he actively served in and was a vehement dissenter of the Vietnam conflict.

If Cheney were simply a chicken-hawk, then there would be no issue. If he were simply a profiteer, there would also be no issue. But his active role as both is worrisome: he stands to profit from his direct ability to shape public opinion as a once-elected representative of the population.

As our society discusses this issue, it is important to take into account not only what is said, but why it is being said. This is what is meant by assessing credibility to speak about a certain matter. The sum of a person's actions informs the listener about his or her credibility and Cheney is no exception.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#53

Post by e3pi »

nikcub wrote: post #28

I feel bad for Drake, he was facing federal charges and nobody seemed to notice. 89% of federal cases are plead before trial and of those that go to trial 90%+ are found guilty, that is how much the odds were stacked against him. He got nowhere near the attention that he deserves[1[] William Binney is an absolute hero. I have absorbed everything this guy has ever said or done[2]. He was not only employed at the NSA,…

The biggest impact I came away from that 2600 HOPE youtube vid was Binney's superiors told him to halt his Thinthread so they had time to wrap alot more budget around it so their revolving door out into commercial intel may more heavily wet their beaks. Being presumably professional mathematicians who should understand the egregious criminality of stealing public trust and funds, this was most particularly egregious. As all this was, and remains classified so this abuse will continue unchecked and unbounded.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#54

Post by dfc »

btilly wrote: post #42
dfc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overwhelming majority of your post but I have to say the draft dodging/deferring comment was a little odd. I think its really tough for us (people who have grown up under an all volunteer service) to pass judgement on how a previous generation dealt with the draft, even more so if we pass those judgements as civilians.

I have never served in the military. But I am old enough that my brother fought in Vietnam (sort of not drafted, it is complicated) and my father was drafted for WW II. I also have relatives serving in the armed forces. (Including, at the moment, 2 nephews.) I have observed what I've seen commented on elsewhere. There is a certain type of person who managed to skip the draft for themselves, and then proceeded to beco…

As far as the draft goes I think you nailed it with "it is complicated."

As far as the rest goes I think we should evaluate policy positions based on the merits of the arguments. My position on Iraq would not be based on whether the president more resembled Gene McCarthy or Curtis "Bombs Away" Lemay.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#55

Post by jeremyflores »

dfc wrote: post #50
jeremyflores wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison between Drake and Cheney should be based on the metric of credibility to speak on these matters. Drake has military experience and has put his career and freedom on the line for public disclosure. Cheney actively avoided putting himself in harm's way, then sent people to their deaths, directly profited from it, and will continue to profit off any future militaristic endeavors the US pursues. Cheney is…

So you are some sort of neo-aristotelian except instead of property ownership you think the credibility of people's opinions is based on years in uniform? Does Ellsberg get partial credit for being a policy analyst at DoD?

Please re-read my comments. It has nothing to do with military service or the number of years served. I'm making a general point about each individual's credibility and motivations for speaking out on PRISM. Drake gains nothing from his outspokenness, Cheney stands to profit quite a bit.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#56

Post by rhizome »

dfc wrote: post #29
miles wrote: post #27

Somehow this quote from the interview by Thomas Drake, a former senior executive of the NSA and a decorated Air Force and Navy veteran[1], carries a bit more weight for me than the widely trumpeted blatherings of Dick Cheney[2], winner of five draft deferments[3]: I actually salute him. I will say it right here. I actually salute him, given my experience over many, many years both inside and outside the system. Remem…

I agree with the overwhelming majority of your post but I have to say the draft dodging/deferring comment was a little odd. I think its really tough for us (people who have grown up under an all volunteer service) to pass judgement on how a previous generation dealt with the draft, even more so if we pass those judgements as civilians.

There is plenty of evidence regarding the opinions of the people of Cheney's parents' generation (and earlier) about people who avoid mandatory military service, not to mention voluntary.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#57

Post by aaronbrethorst »

jeremyflores wrote: post #48
davidhollander wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an ad hominem which falls short of hypocrisy or contradiction because the soldiers and contractors sent to Iraq were not conscripted. Surely there are more substantive arguments to be made.

The comparison between Drake and Cheney should be based on the metric of credibility to speak on these matters. Drake has military experience and has put his career and freedom on the line for public disclosure. Cheney actively avoided putting himself in harm's way, then sent people to their deaths, directly profited from it, and will continue to profit off any future militaristic endeavors the US pursues. Cheney is…

> then sent people to their deaths

On several occasions. He was the Secretary of Defense for the first Gulf War, and VP when both Afghanistan and the second Gulf War started up.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#58

Post by Daishiman »

dllthomas wrote: post #14
danso wrote: post #9

> Binney: Part of his job as the system administrator, he was to maintain the system. Keep the databases running. Keep the communications working. Keep the programs that were interrogating them operating. So that meant he was like a super-user. He could go on the network or go into any file or any system and change it or add to it or whatever, just to make sure — because he would be responsible to get it back up and…

Which is funny, because I thought mandatory access controls was the key feature that the NSA added in SELinux.

SELinux is no match for a poorly set-up database.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#59

Post by einhverfr »

danso wrote: post #9

> Binney: Part of his job as the system administrator, he was to maintain the system. Keep the databases running. Keep the communications working. Keep the programs that were interrogating them operating. So that meant he was like a super-user. He could go on the network or go into any file or any system and change it or add to it or whatever, just to make sure — because he would be responsible to get it back up and…

Securing data against a systems administrator however is difficult on the best of days. I have done some of this for Efficito (http://www.efficito.com). Even with the best of care there are ways an administrator can get the info no matter what you do. All you really can do is restrict it to ensure that casual access is not an issue.

For example, we store virtual machine root passwords in an encrypted database for last resort purposes (so that someone can log in using virsh console as root when nothing else is working). There are three layers of encryption and as far as casual access goes (assuming nothing is reconfigured), mere root access to the box is not enough to reveal the information. However if you can change what is logged by PostgreSQL and reconfigure PostgreSQL's authentication options you could grab enough information to effectively read this data.

People with the sort of access required to make sure things are secure can effectively get the data off the system that they want, and the alternative in designing a system is to have one with no superusers and the possibility that information is irrevokably lost when someone forgets a password. The most secure systems end up somewhere between them.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#60

Post by dfc »

jeremyflores wrote: post #52
dfc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the discussion our society is having is important. I do not think we should spend time trying to score ancillary points because something is "fair game." Are Cheney's positions on PRISM really dependent on his service record? Would you be more inclined to agree and support them if they were put forward by Bob Kerrey? More generally should we only elect candidates who have also served so that we can avoid havi…

As I mentioned in response to davidhollander, Cheney's personal background is extremely important. If Kerry came out in support of PRISM et al., that would absolutely give me some pause--he actively served in and was a vehement dissenter of the Vietnam conflict. If Cheney were simply a chicken-hawk, then there would be no issue. If he were simply a profiteer, there would also be no issue. But his active role as both…

And if it was Bob Kerrey, a Navy SEAL, vietnam veteran, MoH recipient, Republican from nebraska?

Why did you assume I used a Democrat as an example?

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