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Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

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Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#111

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

Note to Bob Schieffer: The US' pathetic record on protecting important gov't whistleblowers is responsible for Snowden's flight.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#112

Post by reedlaw »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #87
joonix wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen any articles discuss a major issue: his immigration status. If he's on a visitor/business visa he likely only has 6-12 months in the country. If he's there as a tourist, 90 days. If he overstays his visa, he can be arrested and deported.

Day trip to Macau might fix that. I bet he can get a special accommodation though.

He might face extradition at the border, depending on how Macau-China-US relations work.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#113

Post by stcredzero »

toyg wrote: post #62
Apocryphon wrote: post #35

I've been thinking of alternative destinations. New Zealand, home of exile Kim Dotcom, could work. But what about Sweden? Aren't they very neutral? Or Switzerland, the nation that's synonymous with neutrality?

Are you serious? New Zealand is the land of night-raids on Kim Dotcom's home to please American corporations -- not exactly a prime candidate. Sweden is the country currently responsible for Assange's plight. Switzerland, as I said elsewhere, is now an EU state in all but name, and their security services are laughable anyway. What Snowden needs is not "neutrality" in a Cold-War sense. Strictly speaking, no governmen…

> Switzerland, as I said elsewhere, is now an EU state in all but name, and their security services are laughable anyway.

Agreed. The changes they made to their banking after 911 are a clear indication of how much reach the US has within Swiss borders.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#114

Post by andrewflnr »

spitx wrote: post #15
onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

If you can have all the effect, getting the message out, without getting bruises, that is strictly better than getting bruises. The only thing standing in the way of that is people like you who think you have to sacrifice yourself for your message to count. Who would Snowden be selflessly helping by turning himself in?

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#115

Post by toyg »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #103
toyg wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure Kim Dotcom thought his move to NZ had "worked pretty well".

It did. It wasn't without it's hiccups. But, there he is in NZ still doing two things that he apparently loves to do, trolling and making money.

He trolls Hollywood interests, Snowden is effectively trolling the whole US government; the difference is of some importance.

NZ was in the original Echelon program, in terms of intelligence they fall squarely in line with GCHQ and friends. It's really one of the worst locations he could choose, right after the US and Britain.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#116

Post by e3pi »

spitx wrote: post #15
onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

You appear to have a high value or `goal' of personal `heroism'. Is this something imprinted from mom and dad or scripted in Boy Scouts? Your kind do well in High School marching band, as E- ball-peen hammers in the motor-pool, and as dutiful shrapnel fodder. That's the only reason the rest of us remain succinctly cordial and pleasant to your schoolboy entrained narcissism.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#117

Post by toyg »

pyre wrote: post #109
toyg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? New Zealand is the land of night-raids on Kim Dotcom's home to please American corporations -- not exactly a prime candidate. Sweden is the country currently responsible for Assange's plight. Switzerland, as I said elsewhere, is now an EU state in all but name, and their security services are laughable anyway. What Snowden needs is not "neutrality" in a Cold-War sense. Strictly speaking, no governmen…

> New Zealand is the land of night-raids on Kim > Dotcom's home to please American corporations > -- not exactly a prime candidate. That has caused a bunch of blow-back in NZ though. I'd say it's up in the air as to whether or not another such incident will occur.

Yes, but I don't see NZ ever abandoning their strategic intelligence alliance with US and UK (which produced, among other things, the original Echelon). Blowback all you want, Snowden would still be sent straight to Washington.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#118

Post by akiselev »

krapp wrote: post #86
msg wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/resources/article/an... Do any of you believe that there would have been a new Letter from Birmingham Jail if Snowden were imprisoned? Keep in mind the US authorities are calling this civil rights whistleblowing "treason". Aiding the terrorists and enemy combatant status cannot be far behind. Like it or not, the rule of law has been badly damaged by the endless emergency. These…

What Snowden did is, arguably, treason. Whatever you believe about the righteousness of his cause, or the evil of the programs he exposed, or the corruption of the government pursuing him, that he's being pursued is in fact a case of the system working as intended.

I believe you have that backwards. The first statement is not arguable while the second one is, because of the nature of the first.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#119

Post by mpyne »

jacquesm wrote: post #91
mpyne wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manning is not facing the death penalty, is not a "whistleblower" by any reasonable stretch of the term (except perhaps by lucky accident), and his actions were different from Snowden's, at Snowden's own admission.

Manning fits the definition of a whistleblower just fine, he brought a bunch of injustices to public attention. As for not facing the death penalty, he looks like he's halfway at deaths door already, they're just taking their time about it. The world is watching the way Manning is treated and drawing its own conclusions from that.

And the U.S. undoubtedly killed a bunch of criminals by dropping the atomic bomb at Hiroshima, but even the most die-hard supporters of the bomb don't try to make that a positive point of the whole affair.

Instead that tends to be evaluated as a whole and not just with a narrow lens that happens to mesh with whatever you were looking to find.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#120

Post by pondababa »

wavefunction wrote: post #73
frozenport wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that MLK was shot.

And probably not even by the guy that went to prison for it.

Eh? What evidence is there for this, or is it like the JFK conspiracy theories?
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