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Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

nand2tetris.org

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Re: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

#31

Post by ppereira »

alanctgardner2 wrote: post #16

I going to come across as defensive here, but I'm actually in a Computer Engineering program (not Computer Science). This book purports to cover as much material as 8 undergrad courses, I feel like it must skimp on depth to (for example) condense all of 'compilers' into two weeks. Compilers are a very large topic, a single undergrad course isn't even sufficient to really understand a real world project like GCC. Like…

I don't understand your critique. A book manages to condense the design of a computer -- from gate-level to operating system -- in a 300 page tutorial and you do not like the fact that it glosses over some details? I doubt any single person has the knowledge to build a modern computer from scratch, and few people have/need the knowledge to go from gate level to OS-level in the real world.

This book aims to change that in an simplified environment. I don't fault it for skipping over Karnaugh maps just like I don't fault it for skipping the physics of cosmic background radiation, or the techniques used to compensate for failures in multi-level flash memory cells. These details are not on the most direct route from (simulated) nand gates to tetris.

Re: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

#32

Post by kens »

helloTree wrote: post #19

It's an amazing book and doing all the projects is really fun. However keep in mind that the computer you build is really simple and in my opinion maybe a little bit too simple. In particular there is no decent IO model and reading from the keyboard is simply done by busy waiting and writing to the screen is done by writing to a special region in memory. This is ok, as the book covers many topics, but I would enjoy f…

Historically, writing to the screen was done by writing either ASCII or pixel values to a special region in memory (e.g. Apple II, IBM PC). I'm not sure what you're suggesting the book should do instead? Use a serial port and terminal? Implement a GPU? (I'm not being sarcastic, just looking for clarification.)

Re: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

#33

Post by ef4 »

alanctgardner2 wrote: post #16

I going to come across as defensive here, but I'm actually in a Computer Engineering program (not Computer Science). This book purports to cover as much material as 8 undergrad courses, I feel like it must skimp on depth to (for example) condense all of 'compilers' into two weeks. Compilers are a very large topic, a single undergrad course isn't even sufficient to really understand a real world project like GCC. Like…

There's nothing wrong with taking a course that covers a very wide area, even if you're intending to specialize more deeply in all the topics later. It's actually a very effective learning strategy, because it motivates all the subsequent deeper dives.

Re: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

#35

Post by niels_olson »

ef4 wrote: post #33
alanctgardner2 wrote: post #16

I going to come across as defensive here, but I'm actually in a Computer Engineering program (not Computer Science). This book purports to cover as much material as 8 undergrad courses, I feel like it must skimp on depth to (for example) condense all of 'compilers' into two weeks. Compilers are a very large topic, a single undergrad course isn't even sufficient to really understand a real world project like GCC. Like…

There's nothing wrong with taking a course that covers a very wide area, even if you're intending to specialize more deeply in all the topics later. It's actually a very effective learning strategy, because it motivates all the subsequent deeper dives.

I will definitely second that. It's simply not possible to cover every aspect of a topic within any course. Survey courses are a great solution to a very real problem.

Re: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

#37

Post by alanctgardner2 »

ppereira wrote: post #31
alanctgardner2 wrote: post #16

I going to come across as defensive here, but I'm actually in a Computer Engineering program (not Computer Science). This book purports to cover as much material as 8 undergrad courses, I feel like it must skimp on depth to (for example) condense all of 'compilers' into two weeks. Compilers are a very large topic, a single undergrad course isn't even sufficient to really understand a real world project like GCC. Like…

I don't understand your critique. A book manages to condense the design of a computer -- from gate-level to operating system -- in a 300 page tutorial and you do not like the fact that it glosses over some details? I doubt any single person has the knowledge to build a modern computer from scratch, and few people have/need the knowledge to go from gate level to OS-level in the real world. This book aims to change tha…

My biggest problem with the book is that it gives you an adequate, hand-wavey idea of how a computer works, but it doesn't impart any hard skills. Karnaugh maps are a reusable skill in digital design. I've done hundreds of them for simple problems, it's like breathing now. I suspect using multiplexers to simplify a design is also left out. VHDL is a real language people actually use, and you can put it on your CV or do something besides this class with it. Breadboarding a real circuit and troubleshooting it is useful and opens up a whole world of projects.

This class equips you with the tools and knowledge to do one thing: finish the class. It guides you along, handing you simplified abstractions that allow you to progress without getting frustrated. At the end, however, you'll only really know how to take the class. If you wanted to drill deeper, you've already done the introductory week where they do a high-level overview of the course material.

Re: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

#39

Post by alanctgardner2 »

ef4 wrote: post #33
alanctgardner2 wrote: post #16

I going to come across as defensive here, but I'm actually in a Computer Engineering program (not Computer Science). This book purports to cover as much material as 8 undergrad courses, I feel like it must skimp on depth to (for example) condense all of 'compilers' into two weeks. Compilers are a very large topic, a single undergrad course isn't even sufficient to really understand a real world project like GCC. Like…

There's nothing wrong with taking a course that covers a very wide area, even if you're intending to specialize more deeply in all the topics later. It's actually a very effective learning strategy, because it motivates all the subsequent deeper dives.

I guess personally I would feel like I wasted a semester when I had no problem being motivated to deep dive into the other topics already. I suppose if someone was undirected and needed to pick a specialization this might help.

Re: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

#40

Post by ctdonath »

alanctgardner2 wrote: post #16

I going to come across as defensive here, but I'm actually in a Computer Engineering program (not Computer Science). This book purports to cover as much material as 8 undergrad courses, I feel like it must skimp on depth to (for example) condense all of 'compilers' into two weeks. Compilers are a very large topic, a single undergrad course isn't even sufficient to really understand a real world project like GCC. Like…

Just as meaningful as a full course. This is just a "depth first search" thru the content, getting from top to bottom in one pass; you're complaining its not a "breadth first search" covering everything on one level. Done this way, you get the gist of how it all does, in fact, go from NAND gate to games - yes a lot is glossed over or missed, but once the student sees the vertical structure he can see how each layer connects, and how expanded knowledge of each serves not just one layer but those above and below (and how to leverage each in sync).

I appreciate how my education ran from sand to Skyrim (so to speak), and I find it hard to see how anyone can really function in computing without such a vertical understanding.

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