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Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

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Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#121

In a normal scandal story, the appropriate committee would grant immunity to Snowden, have him testify, then bring up Clapper, have him testify, and compare notes. Preferably publicly. Here they bring in one side of the story for a secret Powerpoint presentation, no doubt with a high degree of spin to it, and publicly call Snowden a traitor. Then they complain that nobody shows up. This isn't a bake sale or a dog and…

In a normal scandal story, the appropriate committee would grant immunity to Snowden, have him testify, then bring up Clapper, have him testify, and compare notes. Preferably publicly. Have you seen Manning lately ? White as flour. Shows how much exercise and sun he has been getting while in jail. Snowden would be insane to come without an unconditional pardon/ and full immunity, not just immunity for what he says in…

Manning's situation is totally different. For one thing, he's active military. For another, he didn't even know what he was releasing.

Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sooner or later, random chance produces a majority coalition consisting of people who are willing to horse trade for corrupt programs that specifically benefit their own friends and family Something that a "professional" would never do, and something that is much likelier to happen by randomly selecting 1000-2000 people, than if people are able to work towards it. It clearly would be nuts to take away the ability to…

Elected officials have at least some accountability to the voters. If they do anything sufficiently bad then they don't get reelected, and at any given time there are a majority of elected officials who don't intend to immediately retire and therefore care about being reelected. If you select Congress at random then there is absolutely no accountability whatsoever. They can come in and collude with a majority of the…

Elected officials have at least some accountability to the voters. If they do anything sufficiently bad then they don't get reelected

If I say "pay me 50 dollars, and I will give you X", and then you pay me and I just grin at you, and the WORST you can do to me is to say "fine, then we won't do that again", that's not accountability.

The only thing preventing that would be their own consciences, which may work once or twice but is guaranteed not to work forever.

Their own consciences AND each other. "Each other" meaning a heterogenous group of people from all walks of life, instead of mostly their buddies and "the people doing the same stuff for a different team", which is so much weaker a check. Ever been where thousands or ten thousands of people are? No cameras, no cops? At least where I am those tend to be peaceful and rather moral on average. Small groups of friends however, they can be real dicks. Split them up and mix them with people they don't know that well, or at all, and they will behave much better. Such is the nature of criminal conspiracy, it doesn't like randomness and shooting from the hip.

Don't ask me about the specific implementation details, but I think there should be more "actual accountability", and I don't see why that wouldn't be applicable to "random politicians" as well. For starters, if everybody could theoretically get "drafted" for this tomorrow, many people would make it much more of their business to pay attention to what is going on, to what others are doing in that capacity. That in itself could have a positive effect.

And maybe it could start small, with a few hundred random people who have somewhat of an influence. And if that goes well, do more of that. A/B testing, you know? Because if we're just doing Gedankenexperimente, I don't see why how I experienced the world so far, namely that people in general are good even when they might be a bit lame, and people who want power are usually compensating and sport at best some kind of genius of mediocrity, shouldn't win over your concerns.

Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#123
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could be single issue candidates, a particular form of corruption IMNSHO, like Clint Eastwood as the Mayor of Carmel. His restaurant then finally got its liquor license or expansion permit or whatever his issue was, I forget the details.

http://clinteastwood.net/mayor

Thanks. I got my timeline wrong, he got his thing done and then ran for office.

Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#124

Our government is broken. It is no longer by the people for the people. Politicians are skipping out of their responsibilities. Politicians spend much of their time in office fundraising for re-election. Politicians raise much of their election financing from corporate interests, not the people, and thus have a diminishing obligation to the people.[1] A vast minority of people elect our politicians because 50% of eli…

[deleted]

Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#125
post #95
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't do better within our current system; it's optimized. Congress must agree to fixing it (with instant run-off voting, to allow competition) but they certainly won't work against themselves to do it. So we're stuck. The president or a member of Congress can largely disserve you with impunity.

(fyi: approval voting is simpler, comparably effective, and probably easier to accomplish)

Interesting, I hadn't heard of that. Thanks. It does look better.

Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#126
post #43

In a normal scandal story, the appropriate committee would grant immunity to Snowden, have him testify, then bring up Clapper, have him testify, and compare notes. Preferably publicly. Here they bring in one side of the story for a secret Powerpoint presentation, no doubt with a high degree of spin to it, and publicly call Snowden a traitor. Then they complain that nobody shows up. This isn't a bake sale or a dog and…

I honestly think it's time to take action more than just normal protests.. Which are useless.. We need to find a way to get more than just the minority to revolt. Think about how many straight up stupid things are happening.. We make jokes about politicians and theyre decisions (see daily show) but i dont think its funny anymore. We need to change. I'm thinking about making some sort of political website, I can't dec…

One thing I always wanted to do, is mine all the data I could, and produce a corruption index for each politician, it would kind of be a Facebook for bills, Bills would be friends with lobbyists through politicians, and you could try and rank each bill by who bought it.

Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#127
post #73
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch Glenn Greenwalds twitter (@ggreenwald) over the next few days/weeks. He alleges to have several more bombshell stories to release, and it looks like he's waiting for the government to lie themselves into a corner before dropping them in the limelight.

>looks like he's waiting for the government to lie themselves into a corner before dropping them in the limelight. He's that good? Knows the `infinitude' of time? Chess gambit(@)? I like him. (@)The word "gambit" was originally applied to chess openings in 1561 by Spanish priest Rúy López de Segura, from an Italian expression dare il gambetto (to put a leg forward in order to trip someone).

Re Gambit: Learned this on an episode of Jeopardy screened in Australia this week. Never knew that it originated in Chess.

Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#128
post #95
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't do better within our current system; it's optimized. Congress must agree to fixing it (with instant run-off voting, to allow competition) but they certainly won't work against themselves to do it. So we're stuck. The president or a member of Congress can largely disserve you with impunity.

(fyi: approval voting is simpler, comparably effective, and probably easier to accomplish)

Ooh, that's an interesting one. Thanks! I've used a system before (no idea what it's called) that gives each voter a number of points (say 10) that they can distribute among the candidates. They can give all 10 points to one person, or spread them out. Of course, your average voter would find this way too confusing.

From the Wikipedia article: > FairVote [argues Approval Voting] can result in the defeat of a candidate who would win an absolute majority in a plurality system, can allow a candidate to win who might not win any support in a plurality elections

This sounds like a good thing. You end up with an elected official that satisfies most of the population.

51% of voters think Alice would be the best person to lead, they'd be OK with Bob but think Carol and Dan are morons. 49% think Carol would be the best person to lead, they'd be OK with Bob but think both Alice and Dan are morons.

So now if we use normal majority voting, Alice wins and 49% of voters have an elected official they think is a moron.

With Approval Voting, Bob will win. Sure, he might have been everyone's second choice, but he's EVERYONE's second choice. So now we're all reasonably happy.

Re: Senators skip classified briefing on NSA snooping to catch flights home

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elected officials have at least some accountability to the voters. If they do anything sufficiently bad then they don't get reelected, and at any given time there are a majority of elected officials who don't intend to immediately retire and therefore care about being reelected. If you select Congress at random then there is absolutely no accountability whatsoever. They can come in and collude with a majority of the…

Elected officials have at least some accountability to the voters. If they do anything sufficiently bad then they don't get reelected If I say "pay me 50 dollars, and I will give you X", and then you pay me and I just grin at you, and the WORST you can do to me is to say "fine, then we won't do that again", that's not accountability. The only thing preventing that would be their own consciences, which may work once o…

>If I say "pay me 50 dollars, and I will give you X", and then you pay me and I just grin at you, and the WORST you can do to me is to say "fine, then we won't do that again", that's not accountability.

Sure it is. You're presumably selling X to me at a profit, so if you screw me now, you're losing all of your future profits, which keeps you honest when that's worth more to you than the benefit of screwing me out of $50 once. Obviously that only works in cases where we're talking about repeat players, but it's still miles away from nothing.

>Their own consciences AND each other.

What do you think that buys you?

Here is how this would play out. A hundred honest people go to Washington. Someone suggests that they get $250,000 for their local community center. That's nothing out of the federal budget, and it seems like a worthy cause, so OK. Somebody else is a teacher and wants a million dollars for her school, same deal.

Soon people are exchanging support for each others' "worthy" pet causes. Somebody's pet cause is a sister who needs a heart transplant. It sure would be nice to get a heart transplant for everybody who needs one, though it turns out there just aren't enough donor hearts for that. But we can make an exception for this guy's sister, can't we? We need his vote to get the community center and the school money.

Eventually somebody asks for something that costs a billion dollars instead of a million and some people have reservations about spending that much on something that smells like favoritism, but the first one will be something sympathetic like a billion dollars for cancer research (which so happens to target the rare type of cancer that the bill's sponsor has). So that one gets the green light because who is going to tell a cancer patient you won't fund cancer research? And once you set the precedent for a billion dollar personal project the next thing you know federal laws are being passed which give a regulatory advantage to the company of the chosen one who works in that industry and major government contracts are being awarded on the basis of "I don't trust these low bidders I've never met but I know this guy."

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