Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

money.msn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 101 posts

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#51

Post by beagle3 »

twoodfin wrote: post #46
gregd wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, I'm not in favor of Corporate Personhood, by any stretch of the imagination. But if corporations want to apply the Constitution as if they're people, I think it's fair for me to apply the corporate tax code to my person.

What's wrong with corporate personhood? Without it, the ACLU, a corporation, doesn't have free speech rights without the consent of Congress.

It's a kludge that does more harm than good. Every other western country has ACLU-like organizations with comparable or better standing, and without the personhood nonsense.

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#52

Post by cdjk »

konstruktor wrote: post #29
pathy wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't. Corporate tax legislation is not the same as personal tax legislation, therefore a comparison is irrelevant. Even if corporations would be treated as people, as long as the legislation is different it does not make sense to compare the two. You may argue that tax rates are too high or low for both or that there are too many loopholes but that is a different discussion. I don't think anyone actually wan…

This is the status quo but doesn't address parent's argument. If corporations want the same rights as natural persons in one area of the law, it would be cherry picking to want to keep a privileged position in another, e.g. tax law. A good argument against parent would need to attack the premise that cherry picking privileges is bad.

Corporate personhood is the easiest way to allow corporations to enter into contracts and engage in civil litigation. I'd be interested in what opponents of corporate personhood propose as ways around those problems, which I think are goods. Having to renegotiate all contracts with a business if the owner dies doesn't seem very efficient.

With regard to tax law, accounting is generally different between corporations and individuals. Specifically, individuals use cash accounting while businesses frequently use accrual accounting. Furthermore, businesses can deduct far more in expenses than an individual. One can argue about that, but I think it makes sense when you realize that corporations are ultimately owned by individuals, but individuals cannot be owned by other individuals or corporations. Individuals are ultimately the "base case" of ownership, so I think the different tax treatment of revenue/profit/income makes sense.

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#53

Post by npsimons »

Shivetya wrote: post #44
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #36

This is an older article. One of the key takeaways is that Congress in 2008 gave the IRS the capability to dive into your personal affairs online in ways that even the justice department can't (without a warrant). They only need to view you as somebody of interest. Better still, the exact nature of all this -- wait for it -- is a secret. The long-term trend here is pretty clear. Congress has the Big Data hammer out,…

Last I read the IRS is not part of the legislative branch, the NSA being part of the DOD may not be as well. Which mostly seems to be true from the stonewalling both agencies are able to do in regards to Congress. You have to wonder, if an agency of the government is not answerable to Congress who represents us, then why do they exist?

As an employee of another part of the DoD, you can bet your ass we're answerable to congress, and not just for budget. There also happens to be this pesky little thing called the constitution. I'm not sure of the details (I took an oath to uphold it so long ago), but I think there may be some directive in there about the right of people to remain secure "in their papers", and it doesn't give any exceptions (eg, to future government agencies or to corporations).

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#54

Post by twoodfin »

beagle3 wrote: post #51
twoodfin wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with corporate personhood? Without it, the ACLU, a corporation, doesn't have free speech rights without the consent of Congress.

It's a kludge that does more harm than good. Every other western country has ACLU-like organizations with comparable or better standing, and without the personhood nonsense.

I don't understand what you mean by "kludge". Either people who form legal entities retain their individual rights regardless of what laws are passed or they don't. That's all "corporate personhood" is. It doesn't mean their corporation gets a vote or can collect food stamps.

And I'll put U.S. free speech absolutism over most of Western Europe any day.

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#55

Post by dragonwriter »

cdjk wrote: post #52
konstruktor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the status quo but doesn't address parent's argument. If corporations want the same rights as natural persons in one area of the law, it would be cherry picking to want to keep a privileged position in another, e.g. tax law. A good argument against parent would need to attack the premise that cherry picking privileges is bad.

Corporate personhood is the easiest way to allow corporations to enter into contracts and engage in civil litigation. I'd be interested in what opponents of corporate personhood propose as ways around those problems, which I think are goods. Having to renegotiate all contracts with a business if the owner dies doesn't seem very efficient. With regard to tax law, accounting is generally different between corporations…

> Corporate personhood is the easiest way to allow corporations to enter into contracts and engage in civil litigation.

Most opponents of corporate "personhood" aren't really opposed to juridical personhood of corporations and other non-natural persons, they are opposed to the effect given to corporate personhood in certain domains; corporate personhood has never been fully equivalent to natural personhood in the law, and there are quite different ways in which corporations could be treated as juridical persons without directly holding the particular rights that have recently caused a lot of people to get offended about "corporate personhood".

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#57

Post by mpyne »

npsimons wrote: post #53
Shivetya wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I read the IRS is not part of the legislative branch, the NSA being part of the DOD may not be as well. Which mostly seems to be true from the stonewalling both agencies are able to do in regards to Congress. You have to wonder, if an agency of the government is not answerable to Congress who represents us, then why do they exist?

As an employee of another part of the DoD, you can bet your ass we're answerable to congress, and not just for budget. There also happens to be this pesky little thing called the constitution. I'm not sure of the details (I took an oath to uphold it so long ago), but I think there may be some directive in there about the right of people to remain secure "in their papers", and it doesn't give any exceptions (eg, to fu…

Actually, it does limit the need for Warrants to "unreasonable searches and seizures".

But, ah! Is this a "reasonable" search on the part of the IRS? Congress thinks so, but we would have to leave it to the Supreme Court to decide.

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#58

Post by 1123581321 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #45
throwaway420 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you forgot to fast forward to the part where politicians, having even more funds at their disposal to try to gain more power, decide to use that extra money to increase spending even more. And contrary to the faux Mother Theresa like notion of government that some people like to project, that money will not mostly go towards relatively positive things like feeding hungry children, giving a helping hand to out…

> The 16th Amendment (income tax) was only instituted in 1913 The 16th Amendment was instituted in 1913, but the first US federal income taxes were adopted during the Civil War, and the first peacetime federal income taxes were adopted in the 1894. The 16th Amendment wasn't passed to give Congress the power to collect taxes on income, it was passed mainly to expand Congress well-established existing power in that dom…

It wasn't well established. Income tax had been found to be unconstitutional. An "excise tax", which was the same thing, was implemented as a workaround. The income tax amendment eliminated the unconstitutionality decisively and was championed by the Prohibition movement.

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#59

Post by seivan »

pathy wrote: post #24
seivan wrote: post #14

Sounds like Sweden. Some guy got a fine for saying something on his own Facebook page about his RV that was under the company. BOM. 400k to be paid.

Swedish article on the matter: http://www.aftonbladet.se/minekonomi/article16839634.ab I have no idea if Skatteverket (IRS equivalent) were right in their decision but the guy did lose in the first court instance. Also: If the Facebook page was public and Skatteverket were questioning the legitimacy of the 'business purchase', why shouldn't they check the page? Basing the decision on only one status update seems a bi…

They weren't questioning or investigating, they outright fined based only on that status report. Guilty until proven innocent.

Re: The IRS has upgraded its technology to track virtually everything you do online

#60

Post by throwaway10001 »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #36

This is an older article. One of the key takeaways is that Congress in 2008 gave the IRS the capability to dive into your personal affairs online in ways that even the justice department can't (without a warrant). They only need to view you as somebody of interest. Better still, the exact nature of all this -- wait for it -- is a secret. The long-term trend here is pretty clear. Congress has the Big Data hammer out,…

Who do you hate America? What do you have to hide? It's all to protect the chilrun /sarcasm

Sadly, the train has left, even courts are neutered. They can and are supposed to nip it in the but they will not do it. Journos are harassed at airports for doing investigative works, and no one wants to do anything about it

Post reply on HN