57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents • Hacker News Board

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#81

Post by einhverfr » Sat, Jun 15, 2013, 7:53 AM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #48

asolove wrote: post #41

I think this is a much more effective method of getting people to reject snooping. Saying "the government can track metadata about who you call" is not very scary. But make it more concrete and you get some scary statements: - The government can use phone call metadata to build a list of all people who likely own firearms and are gun enthusiasts and pro-gun rights. - The government can use phone call metadata to buil…

Sorry but is this the kind of paranoid stupidity I should start to expect from HN now ? The "government" has been able to collect far more data via the tax and health care systems, TSA, census etc for decades. Imagine all the scary statements I could contrive from those. Or how about we amp up the crazy and talk about all the things the "government" could be doing with their drones and satellites.

It's not paranoid. They did that regarding the Communists, Civil Rights Movement, and much much more..... It's just the way things go when you have people in power who believe in their agenda and want to accomplish things.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#82

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sat, Jun 15, 2013, 9:34 AM UTC

asolove wrote: post #41

I think this is a much more effective method of getting people to reject snooping. Saying "the government can track metadata about who you call" is not very scary. But make it more concrete and you get some scary statements: - The government can use phone call metadata to build a list of all people who likely own firearms and are gun enthusiasts and pro-gun rights. - The government can use phone call metadata to buil…

Interesting. You only list scare-scenarios for right-wingers. Are the rest of us just that irrelevant?

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#83

Post by rmc » Sat, Jun 15, 2013, 10:04 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #82

asolove wrote: post #41

I think this is a much more effective method of getting people to reject snooping. Saying "the government can track metadata about who you call" is not very scary. But make it more concrete and you get some scary statements: - The government can use phone call metadata to build a list of all people who likely own firearms and are gun enthusiasts and pro-gun rights. - The government can use phone call metadata to buil…

Interesting. You only list scare-scenarios for right-wingers. Are the rest of us just that irrelevant?

The second item is about abortion. Maintaining lists of what women had or might have an abortion is a way to scare people into not having an abortion, and hence reduce access to abortion. This is a scare scenario for lefty liberal feminists.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#84

Post by ianstallings » Sat, Jun 15, 2013, 12:27 PM UTC

jsdalton wrote: post #25

Millennium wrote: post #2

You will, no doubt, find plenty of people who trust Obama to not do this. You'll find plenty of people who would have trusted Bush, and you'll even find a lot of people who don't trust either one of them. But there's a fourth corner to that square, and I don't think you'd find many people in it at all: people who would trust both Bush and Obama with data like this. That's the thing about governments: people have succ…

Not just "plenty of people" -- actual majorities in both parties: "There are significant partisan differences [in 2013] in views of the government's program to obtain call logs and Internet communication. Democrats are more likely to approve, by 49% to 40%. Independents (34% vs. 56%) and Republicans (32% to 63%) are much more likely to disapprove than approve. "In 2006, when Gallup asked the similar question about a…

It's not baffling when you consider Jersey Shore and Honey Boo Boo.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#85

Post by crusso » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

hobs wrote: post #76

dragonwriter wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have been making complaints like this for several hundred years in this country. People have been making complaints like this for several thousand years, in pretty much every country. I suspect that its largely because people tend to see things in an overly optimistic way as children and progressively see more of the messy bits as they mature, and this creates a common impression (irrespective of the truth)…

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

I love quotes from old dead societies that show us how worries that our society is degrading are unfounded.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#86

Post by crusso » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 9:41 PM UTC

brown9-2 wrote: post #57

crusso wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA has been like a successful startup. The first people in were the superstars who had vision and made things happen. The next arrivals were strong performers not scared of hard work who could at least understand the vision and keep the momentum going. Eventually at any new successful company, the hangers-on arrive. The "work hard, play hard" mantra that drove the first generations gives way to just a "play hard…

This is a poor analogy when you consider that people don't live for hundreds of years and thus there is no such thing as "hangers-on" arriving to a country. It also ignores all of the things that the founders did that we find reprehensible today (slave-owning), along with how far this country has come racially and in regards to civil rights in the past 50 years. It also ignores the fact that the size of the US econom…

no such thing as "hangers-on" arriving to a country

No analogy is exact. Otherwise, it would be called the exact same thing. It's the building and creation of the food stamp culture that is analogous to the hangers on of startups.

founders did that we find reprehensible today

No massive social welfare programs that bankrupt society == slavery. Sure.

US economy has never been larger

Revenue does not equal health of a company or of a country.

People have been making complaints like this for several hundred years in this country

I think it has more to do with people not having realized what they've lost of their freedoms and the core strengths of the country due to the slow but inexorable encroachment of tyranny in our everyday lives.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#87

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Jun 17, 2013, 1:50 AM UTC

Millennium wrote: post #2

You will, no doubt, find plenty of people who trust Obama to not do this. You'll find plenty of people who would have trusted Bush, and you'll even find a lot of people who don't trust either one of them. But there's a fourth corner to that square, and I don't think you'd find many people in it at all: people who would trust both Bush and Obama with data like this. That's the thing about governments: people have succ…

That's a point I've made as well:

https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/RJpNqz1y...

[Long bit about supposing I'm OK with Obama spying on all and sundry]

Now take that argument and flip it: I'm a raving reactionary right-wing flag-waving, Bush-loving, Grover Norquist worshiping, NASCAR fanning, Fox-watching, elephant-tattoo-on-my-ass Republican. Guess what: I have exactly the same rapid paranoid concern about Obama's or any Democratic administration's use of FISA surveillance.

The so-called PATRIOT Act is a significant part of what's tearing the US apart. It fosters distrust on both sides of a vast and growing political divide. It is more power to the government with less oversight than anyone can trust. "That is not what democracy is about. That is not what freedom is about," to quote Senator Sanders.

The so-called PATRIOT Act always was and will be a full admission and capitulation to the fact that we've abandoned our cherished freedoms and the terrorists have won.