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57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

rasmussenreports.com

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Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#71

Post by mpyne »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #42
bcoates wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This simply isn't true. Obama ran on being Bush's third and fourth terms and that's what we got. The two of them have been a radical departure from previous administrations. Two presidencies does not make an immutable law of nature. Recent political events have demonstrated just how autonomous the President is, there is no reason to think there is some sort of hidden power at play here. If anything we need a stronger…

>This simply isn't true. Obama ran on being Bush's third and fourth terms and that's what we got. No, he ran on the exact opposite - being the anti-Bush. Maybe you saw through that are remembering what you perceived instead. And there's no "hidden power" in so far as the Federal bureaucracy is anything but hidden. Secretive maybe, but not hidden. >If anything we need a stronger and more professional bureaucracy that'…

Well let's be fair, they both ran on some part by being "not Bush". The GOP couldn't find a corner dusty enough to stick GWB in during that election cycle.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#72

Post by mpyne »

baddox wrote: post #27
wicknicks wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't remember who said this, but my response to your comment can be best articulated with this quote "all philosophical arguments root from grammatical inconsistencies". So, I apologize if I made you feel that way. That was not my intent. The only other time I remember such an outcry here at HN was when Steve Jobs passed. A big and depressing event, indeed. I just don't understand why we complain so sparsely about…

If you genuinely do not understand why humans almost universally do this, I can offer some ideas. One is temporal proximity. The NSA leaks are very recent in time, while other arguably more important problems have been around forever. There's also physical proximity (people aren't dying of hunger much in the Western world), likelihood of affecting change (people may think that political action right now can help with…

More important problems such as that Google, a publically-traded for-profit company having the very data that NSA seeks to obtain, and yet very few so much as bat an eye at that, but instead say that it's OK for Google and their advertisers and 3rd parties to have access to the data and for them to change the privacy policy at will, as long as the gub'mint doesn't have that data.

You are right, of course: The leaks are more recent in time than the people pointing that out about Google/Facebook/etc., so I'm not that surprised at the difference in reaction.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#74

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

wicknicks wrote: post #8

Fun science fact: Fear causes people to think irrationally. I find it hard to believe that so many people have jumped out of their wits over this NSA news. After all, there are so many more harder and pressing problems in the world. Global Warming, Child Slavery, Drugs, overpriced health care, mortgage and education loans? But on HN, the most intellectual community I am part of (imo) is so worried about automated pro…

>I find it hard to believe that so many people have jumped out of their wits over this NSA news.

I've been waiting for years for this discussion to take place. I opposed PATRIOT as an irrational overreaction from the beginning. It's taken this long for the opposition to get any traction. Don't be so surprised that it has support now that people who oppose the surveillance state don't have to endure being called crazy unpatriotic paranoid loons.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#75

Post by comefrom10 »

coldtea wrote: post #59
halorhodopsin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, it's not really paranoid stupidity. these resources were used against the Occupy movement. if you look at the 70's, COINTELPRO was created to squash domestic dissenting groups such as the Black Panthers, to great effect. our government is perfectly fine with suppressing dissent, and the fate of the Occupy movement shows this - a government would not use undercover police, agent provocateurs, destabilizing tacti…

> well, it's not really paranoid stupidity. these resources were used against the Occupy movement. if you look at the 70's, COINTELPRO was created to squash domestic dissenting groups such as the Black Panthers, to great effect. And tons of other similar programs. Like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird What's "paranoid" (== isolated in a private little world and ignoring facts) is to ignore or…

> As Gore Vidal put it: "Americans have been trained by media to go into Pavlovian giggles at the mention of 'conspiracy' because for an American to believe in a conspiracy he must also believe in flying saucers."

While we're on that subject:

There's a very interesting video about 9/11 that every American really, really, really should watch put out by a group called Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth.

"9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#76

Post by hobs »

dragonwriter wrote: post #60
brown9-2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a poor analogy when you consider that people don't live for hundreds of years and thus there is no such thing as "hangers-on" arriving to a country. It also ignores all of the things that the founders did that we find reprehensible today (slave-owning), along with how far this country has come racially and in regards to civil rights in the past 50 years. It also ignores the fact that the size of the US econom…

> People have been making complaints like this for several hundred years in this country. People have been making complaints like this for several thousand years, in pretty much every country. I suspect that its largely because people tend to see things in an overly optimistic way as children and progressively see more of the messy bits as they mature, and this creates a common impression (irrespective of the truth)…

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#77

Post by bradyo »

ivanca wrote: post #46
asolove wrote: post #41

I think this is a much more effective method of getting people to reject snooping. Saying "the government can track metadata about who you call" is not very scary. But make it more concrete and you get some scary statements: - The government can use phone call metadata to build a list of all people who likely own firearms and are gun enthusiasts and pro-gun rights. - The government can use phone call metadata to buil…

Yeah, the government use fear to spread ignorance, we should do the same to spread awareness against their systematic privacy violations.

But seriously

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#78

Post by einhverfr »

curt wrote: post #16

People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. The Soviet Union collapsed 20 years ago, many European countries have been free for less than 40 years. Don't take freedom for granted, it's not the steady state system, tyranny is. I'm sorry to say but a lot of countries will degrade back to authoritarianism within the next 10-20 years due to economy and political problems. They who ca…

> People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world.

What? Would you like a detailed list of counterexamples ranging from local farmer councils accepting or vetoing kings in early medieval Norway to the Greco-Roman governmental systems on which ours are based?

Additionally, it is the case that up until the last 100 years or so, tyranny was constrained by the amount of enforcement effort required. Drones in particular I see as a very major threat here for that reason.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#79

Post by pfortuny »

einhverfr wrote: post #78
curt wrote: post #16

People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. The Soviet Union collapsed 20 years ago, many European countries have been free for less than 40 years. Don't take freedom for granted, it's not the steady state system, tyranny is. I'm sorry to say but a lot of countries will degrade back to authoritarianism within the next 10-20 years due to economy and political problems. They who ca…

> People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. What? Would you like a detailed list of counterexamples ranging from local farmer councils accepting or vetoing kings in early medieval Norway to the Greco-Roman governmental systems on which ours are based? Additionally, it is the case that up until the last 100 years or so, tyranny was constrained by the amount of enforcement effort…

I guess he does not consider systems in which esclavitude/serfdom existed as "democratic": your examples are more -in his mind, I guess- "aristochracies/oligarchies" than the "democracies" we now have.

Athens is probably a mild exception (but with esclavitude).

I agree with you, though. I am only trying to clarify what the parent was referring to.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#80

Post by einhverfr »

pfortuny wrote: post #79
einhverfr wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. What? Would you like a detailed list of counterexamples ranging from local farmer councils accepting or vetoing kings in early medieval Norway to the Greco-Roman governmental systems on which ours are based? Additionally, it is the case that up until the last 100 years or so, tyranny was constrained by the amount of enforcement effort…

I guess he does not consider systems in which esclavitude/serfdom existed as "democratic": your examples are more -in his mind, I guess- "aristochracies/oligarchies" than the "democracies" we now have. Athens is probably a mild exception (but with esclavitude). I agree with you, though. I am only trying to clarify what the parent was referring to.

Well, Norway wasn't really serfdom (serfdom basically evolved from Roman slavery). It was rather a matter where free farmer districts endorsing one king or another. Keep in mind that the troop levies were locally managed but not on the continental feudal model, and these local assemblies were the primary legal bodies of their areas. I don't think it was any less democratic than the US today.

Additionally keep in mind that during much of the time, if there was a dispute (and this was common before the Conversion), these districts could and did lead to the rise and fall of kings.

But even if you say monarchies are out (in which case the UK today is not democratic), you still have Iceland, Gottland, and much more.

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