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57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

rasmussenreports.com

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Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#11

Post by Uhhrrr »

wicknicks wrote: post #8

Fun science fact: Fear causes people to think irrationally. I find it hard to believe that so many people have jumped out of their wits over this NSA news. After all, there are so many more harder and pressing problems in the world. Global Warming, Child Slavery, Drugs, overpriced health care, mortgage and education loans? But on HN, the most intellectual community I am part of (imo) is so worried about automated pro…

You might be too young to remember why laws like FISA exist. The government really has abused its wiretapping capabilities for political ends in the past. So the fear is not irrational at all. You seem to care about a lot of political issues. Do you think the government is always going to be on your side?

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#12

Post by general_failure »

(I am not an american)

OK, so obama approves all this today. Don't you guys think he has the common sense to think that he will be a target tomorrow himself when he is no longer president? His wife and kids and their families?

Such things are definitely to worry about in dictatorial countries but nothing to be 'paranoid' about in democracies. While I don't condone the government for monitoring data, I will have to 'respect' their decision if they think it's the way to go about providing security. After all, they were elected by the people and people have to trust them for their brains.

The whole prism thing is completely blown up because media has nothing else to talk about right now. It's just waiting for another news to happen and everyone will move on.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#13

Post by akiselev »

general_failure wrote: post #12

(I am not an american) OK, so obama approves all this today. Don't you guys think he has the common sense to think that he will be a target tomorrow himself when he is no longer president? His wife and kids and their families? Such things are definitely to worry about in dictatorial countries but nothing to be 'paranoid' about in democracies. While I don't condone the government for monitoring data, I will have to 'r…

This would never happen. As far as I know, the US has never had a violent change of power except for the Civil War and former Presidents and their spouses are protected for life by the secret service. When the guy you want to target is very well known and knows the country's deepest darkest secrets, there's nothing you can do.

Everyone else, however, well... we won't be so lucky.

Edit: And no, it is they who must trust us. We must never trust them and we must always be vigilant, always looking over their shoulder, ready to squash their wretched political careers at the slightest infraction against democracy.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#14

Post by chimeracoder »

general_failure wrote: post #12

(I am not an american) OK, so obama approves all this today. Don't you guys think he has the common sense to think that he will be a target tomorrow himself when he is no longer president? His wife and kids and their families? Such things are definitely to worry about in dictatorial countries but nothing to be 'paranoid' about in democracies. While I don't condone the government for monitoring data, I will have to 'r…

> Don't you guys think he has the common sense to think that he will be a target tomorrow himself when he is no longer president? His wife and kids and their families?

That depends on whether or not we think that he and his family will be beholden to the same rules as everyone else.

Many of us would argue that that is a faulty assumption.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#15

Post by general_failure »

chimeracoder wrote: post #14
general_failure wrote: post #12

(I am not an american) OK, so obama approves all this today. Don't you guys think he has the common sense to think that he will be a target tomorrow himself when he is no longer president? His wife and kids and their families? Such things are definitely to worry about in dictatorial countries but nothing to be 'paranoid' about in democracies. While I don't condone the government for monitoring data, I will have to 'r…

> Don't you guys think he has the common sense to think that he will be a target tomorrow himself when he is no longer president? His wife and kids and their families? That depends on whether or not we think that he and his family will be beholden to the same rules as everyone else. Many of us would argue that that is a faulty assumption.

But a smart person is bound to think that this will happen to him tomorrow _regardless_ of the state today. If you were the president, wouldn't you think you are prone to surveillance despite being president today? I definitely would. I know that when my time is up anything can happen to me. Future presidents can repeal all sorts of powers the same way I as president did.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#16

Post by curt »

People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. The Soviet Union collapsed 20 years ago, many European countries have been free for less than 40 years. Don't take freedom for granted, it's not the steady state system, tyranny is.

I'm sorry to say but a lot of countries will degrade back to authoritarianism within the next 10-20 years due to economy and political problems.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#17

Post by tokenizer »

curt wrote: post #16

People seem to forget that democracy and freedom are relatively new to the world. The Soviet Union collapsed 20 years ago, many European countries have been free for less than 40 years. Don't take freedom for granted, it's not the steady state system, tyranny is. I'm sorry to say but a lot of countries will degrade back to authoritarianism within the next 10-20 years due to economy and political problems. They who ca…

I guess our best hope is that at least one country can retain it.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#18

Post by baddox »

wicknicks wrote: post #8

Fun science fact: Fear causes people to think irrationally. I find it hard to believe that so many people have jumped out of their wits over this NSA news. After all, there are so many more harder and pressing problems in the world. Global Warming, Child Slavery, Drugs, overpriced health care, mortgage and education loans? But on HN, the most intellectual community I am part of (imo) is so worried about automated pro…

I despise arguments like yours, which logically lead to the claim that only the most important problem in the world should be worried about until it is solved, and then the new most important problem, etc. Not only is it ridiculous on its own, it also requires the arguer to break the very rule he or she is proposing, by spending time worrying about what other people are worrying about, instead of whatever the most important problem in the world is.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#19

Post by wicknicks »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #11
wicknicks wrote: post #8

Fun science fact: Fear causes people to think irrationally. I find it hard to believe that so many people have jumped out of their wits over this NSA news. After all, there are so many more harder and pressing problems in the world. Global Warming, Child Slavery, Drugs, overpriced health care, mortgage and education loans? But on HN, the most intellectual community I am part of (imo) is so worried about automated pro…

You might be too young to remember why laws like FISA exist. The government really has abused its wiretapping capabilities for political ends in the past. So the fear is not irrational at all. You seem to care about a lot of political issues. Do you think the government is always going to be on your side?

Yes, I tend to be optimistic about what big corporations and governments can do. After all, they are the people with the resources to change the world if they wanted to. Call me naive.

I remember the Bush Wiretapping Laws (seems like a successor to FISA).

After saying that, I am not "for" any organization (political or business) to misuse personal information. Personal info is personal, and it should stay that way. But the fear some people are portraying seems irrational and overblown, and this will lead the tech community to self-impose some harsh "laws", which will not play out well.

Re: 57% Fear Government Will Use NSA Data to Harass Political Opponents

#20

Post by SkyMarshal »

wonderyak wrote: post #3
Millennium wrote: post #2

You will, no doubt, find plenty of people who trust Obama to not do this. You'll find plenty of people who would have trusted Bush, and you'll even find a lot of people who don't trust either one of them. But there's a fourth corner to that square, and I don't think you'd find many people in it at all: people who would trust both Bush and Obama with data like this. That's the thing about governments: people have succ…

The other problem -- despite the changing of the guard in the Executive branch -- other branches and workers stay the same.

Exactly.

I find it confounding how people are still attributing this stuff to Presidents when it should be obvious by now it's not the elected officials running this show. They're being led along by an entrenched bureaucracy with its own goals and agenda, no term limits, and with the ability to shape the world view and hence decisions of our elected officials by what information they choose to provide or withhold.

Stop talking about this in terms of Bush or Obama, Republican or Democrat. The problem transcends any one elected individual or even political party.

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