Live data from Hacker News

The Destruction of the Web

jacquesmattheij.com

51–60 of 98 posts

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#51
Destruction just seems like such a harsh word.

Any time you measure something, you impact what you measure. Without being pedantic about the Physics, look around. If you measure when people get in and our of work, they will optimize around it, and other things may suffer. If you measure defects in code, people will optimize it.

But back to the web... Search by definition is a measurement or prediction of usefulness. It will definitely impact what gets searched. But that collateral damage can be minimized. And it some cases it can improve the web experience, though I wouldn't bank on it. I certainly don't view the Web as a pristine wilderness being destroyed.

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#53
post #50
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some salient examples of gaming in the world of Academic discovery and citation?

I won't dig out examples, but I'd like to sketch the general game: You need to have a good publication record (i.e., papers in journals and conference proceedings, some monographs with a prestigious publisher can also help). When you can't publish in high-impact journals/conferences, you lower your expectations and spread your papers over several journals/conferences, some _will_ publish you. The next thing is to spl…

My concern -- and this is a total layman's observation -- is that if someone comes up with a good way to "spam" the academic research circuit, will we be able to tell? Most of us remember the recent Reinhart-Rogoff incident in which a massively flawed paper (think, Excel-based) wasn't challenged until a curious grad student took notice: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-excel-austerity-economics-paper...

There are other issues in all of that, but for the current discussion, I think it's enough to argue that discovery of exaggeration (the equivalent of resume padding) is still a very difficult problem in academic papers and citations. Do researchers have the tools to methodically sift out the good from the meh? It doesn't seem so. Combine that with the lack of incentive (as seems to be the case in Reinhart-Rogoff) to disprove published findings, and you have a scenario in which gaming the system seems quite doable.

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#54
The way to solve this problem that's been discussed before is to require authenticated identity in the protocol layer, so every packet can be traced to a real, live person.

But then that breeds new problems:

1) The NSA might like the ability to tie every packet to a person, but privacy and anonymity are generally good things.

2) Just because you have a reliable way to track/measure "real" reputation/authority/trust, will that stop people from abusing it? Did the offline version of this stop Paula Deen from building an empire on unhealthy eating only to later reveal her own diet gave her diabetes? No.

Human nature is driving a fair bit of this stuff, and has nothing to do with Google, the web, protocols, or spam. We always try to eliminate the "flawed human" from systems, and it never works.

3) The fact that reputation/authority/trust is unreliable might actually be a feature not a bug. For one thing, it allows some dude with no social capital to get a toehold and get his stuff in front of users. Generally Google allows this to happen, and if the content sucks, it falls away. I don't mind a bit of spam if it's the price for more diversity and opportunity for people outside the "lucky sperm club" to rise.

Overall, I don't buy this "destruction of the web" stuff. If anything, Google has made both the web AND search are way better today. It's possible that Google's anti-spam strategies will hit a point of diminishing marginal return, and the spammers will catch up and the balance will swing in their direction again, but so far that's not been the trend.

I think the equilibrium we're seeing is that Google allows a very small amount of spam tactics spam to work for a while, but they use other signals that keeps that stuff from getting major traffic (e.g. eHow). So gaming the system can get you in search rankings, but if you suck, you won't stay there.

But more importantly, I don't want to trade off privacy and anonymity to eliminate what amounts to a very small amount of spam.

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#55
At the cost of result quality, one could exploit social networks as a possible solution: promote the pages that your neighbors visit for an extended period of time (and thus deem to be of high value) by a factor corresponding to said neighbor's distance from you. If the queries are slightly randomized such that their order differs per person and per session, then new possible results could tested.

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#56
post #50
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some salient examples of gaming in the world of Academic discovery and citation?

I won't dig out examples, but I'd like to sketch the general game: You need to have a good publication record (i.e., papers in journals and conference proceedings, some monographs with a prestigious publisher can also help). When you can't publish in high-impact journals/conferences, you lower your expectations and spread your papers over several journals/conferences, some _will_ publish you. The next thing is to spl…

See also: http://members.verizon.net/vze3fs8i/air/airpaper.html

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#57
"Destruction of the Web" is a bit hyperbolic. I tried the SEO game for the interest of my clients, I've come to realize that it's a better long term strategy to simply focus on good, relevant content and let nature take it's course. When you're publishing content targeted at a certain audience, spammy visits to your website just increase your bandwidth cost without much benefit.

Granted there is inherent benefit in coming in on top of a google search, but time and time again, I've seen good content naturally dominate and stay on top. Occasionally some black had spammer comes out on top.

And truth of the matter is, I think it's google/'s job to figure out a way to discern good content from spam.

Google Dominated early on, b/c they were able to parse thru a lot of the garbage and find you what you were looking for. There will always be spammers. And if this whole arms race thing is true, I think the spammers are likely to hit a ceiling before Google or another search engine is.

As a programmer, my initial instinct was to write code to counter what Google's algorithm would expect. Then, I thought, if I'm going to put in that much work, why the hell not build a better search engine myself?

I believe that if Google doesn't do a great job of getting the best possible results, not only do they face a treat from other giants like bing, but also from crafty programmers who may be writing black hat seo crap now and have the epiphany to try to build a better search engine (yes... I know... I think PG has a real point with the search engine thing)

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#58
post #50
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some salient examples of gaming in the world of Academic discovery and citation?

I won't dig out examples, but I'd like to sketch the general game: You need to have a good publication record (i.e., papers in journals and conference proceedings, some monographs with a prestigious publisher can also help). When you can't publish in high-impact journals/conferences, you lower your expectations and spread your papers over several journals/conferences, some _will_ publish you. The next thing is to spl…

Similarly, self-citation is a known issue.

http://www.rogerclarke.com/SOS/SCSP-09.html

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#59
Gad, I am so sick of SEO. Not Jacques article, but SEO in general.

Google owns the game. They run the game on a computer. Ergo, if you want people naturally coming from Google, you must do things its computer likes.

Only they won't tell you that. Instead, they'll offer platitudes like "write good content and the users will come" when we all know you could write great content until the cows come home and if nobody links to you, you ain't getting no traffic.

And I think it's unfair to call all these guys leeches, miscreants, or whatever. I don't like a lot of the things they do, but I also respect the fact that I live in a first world country. I have a good way of living. If I were terribly impoverished and only had to spam a lot to feed my family? I'd do it. We assume everybody else on the web lives the same lives that we do. We also are getting this quasi-religious thing going on where Google must return what I want at the top of the search results. If it does not, somebody has sinned. I'm not drinking that cool-aid.

I'm with Jacques on the solution: a new protocol and the elimination of single-points-of-failure. This thing where Google keeps updating it's algorithm and tens of thousands of people keep gaming the system has to stop. It's not healthy behavior either for Google or for the spammers. And it's destroying the web.

Sidebar: you know, if you think about it, with all the walled gardens and vendors refusing common protocols and such, the web itself is under attack from multiple angles.

Re: The Destruction of the Web

#60
post #29

I've never understood the concept of black-hat SEO. If your site isn't worthwhile enough to be on the front page of relevant search results, why would you pay somebody to set up link farms and comment spam et al that might get your site up the rankings; instead of just paying Google to put your site as an ad when people run the relevant searches? Either way it's going to cost you money, but one is guaranteed to work…

It is hardly that simple, the costs involved could be completely different, high organic ratings might create a positive ROI whereas PPC might be far too expensive. Also if your content isn't at all really desirable it is possible you will have trouble running Adwords for it as well.

So it's better to pay less for an unreliable solution that sucks, than pay more for a guaranteed place at the top of the front page?

And if your content "isn't at all desirable" then how is SEO going to help? "We have stuff nobody wants, if only we could get on the front page they'd buy it!" doesn't seem like much of a business plan..

Post reply on HN