Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers • Hacker News Board

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#21

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 2:32 PM UTC

ChikkaChiChi wrote: post #7

The article misses a rather large point: We (meaning the tech elite) are the first army in human history to be less concerned with the acquisition of power and control and more about giving that empowerment to the individuals we fight for. Hear me out. Those of us over the age of 30 are mostly digital immigrants. We remember a world without CallerID, a PC in every office, and a global network interconnecting all the…

What a bunch of egocentric, self-aggrandizing tripe.

> are the first army in human history to be less concerned with the acquisition of power and control and more about giving that empowerment to the individuals we fight for.

Everyone who calls to arms thinks that. Most radicals end up being more oppressive than the regimes they replaced. Forward progress has, much more often, come incrementally, from the U.S.'s very conservative revolutionary ideals to the U.K.'s bloodless internal revolutions.

> many of us were forced to develop of our code of ethics; many times in complete isolation from one another.

That makes no sense when you're talking about a bunch of people who are the least isolated group in history, being connected by the internet.

> A select few had the worlds biggest glass up against the world's biggest door; and most of us chose (choose) to honor that responsibility by respecting the privacy of one another.

Oh yes, great respect! As an industry, you only chose to sell their information to the highest bidder to Big Advertising.

> We developed our own morality in a vacuum where historically

What? No.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#22

Post by JamisonM » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 2:37 PM UTC

vadman wrote: post #18

jmduke wrote: post #4

A nice quote from Jefferson that I spotted in the comments: "[a] strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property…

The quote is nice but it's a great justification for illegal/unconstitutional actions. Those in power can do a lot of harm while abusing this idea.

The warped mind of Timothy McVeigh as well.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#23

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

ChikkaChiChi wrote: post #7

The article misses a rather large point: We (meaning the tech elite) are the first army in human history to be less concerned with the acquisition of power and control and more about giving that empowerment to the individuals we fight for. Hear me out. Those of us over the age of 30 are mostly digital immigrants. We remember a world without CallerID, a PC in every office, and a global network interconnecting all the…

There are certainly people like you describe. On the other hand in the early days of the net there were legions of script kiddies and others doing all kinds of shitty things.

Also don't forget that there are probably a lot of geeks working at the NSA; considering that, their leak rate is really pretty low.

People are fundamentally drawn to power. Having an open and censorship free internet gives people who understand technology the most power. Having a regulated internet accessed through "walled garden" devices gives that power back to governments and suits.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#24

Post by w_t_payne » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 2:45 PM UTC

jenius wrote: post #3

I've gotta agree with Appelbaum - this thesis is ridiculous and unsupported. There are tons of activists in many different fields, and there's nothing about being a computer programmer that makes you more likely to be an activist. Just because this guy cited a couple of activists who were also computer programmers is just not support enough -- if he really wanted a balanced review, he would have talked about any acti…

FWIW: A lot of terrorists had/have an engineering background.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#25

Post by chris_mahan » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 2:45 PM UTC

"In the long tail of history just following orders is wrong." dang that is a nice quote.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#26

Post by btilly » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 2:54 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #5

w_t_payne wrote: post #2

Software developers generally occupy positions of considerable (if unacknowledged) power and trust within their organizations. The practice of software development necessarily involves dealing with minutiae in large quantities; in making making dozens of mostly small (but consequential) decisions each day. In aggregate, the effect of these decisions can be (and often is) of enormous import to the business or organiza…

>>Most organizations management structures are staffed with individuals who tend to emphasise and practice...communication and persuasion If only. More like "do it this way cause I say." Looking back at some of the places I've worked, it would be a pleasure if this were more true.

Emphasize and practice does not mean emphasize and practice effective methods.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#27

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 2:57 PM UTC

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service?

In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go into public service for a fraction of the money, doing often thankless work. One of my best friends wants to save the environment. The summer after our second year of school, I went to go intern at a firm, which gave me a $1k/month lunch budget and a guaranteed job after graduation, while she went to intern for the EPA which doesn't have much of a budget for anything, and rarely hires anyone after graduation. Now, I've got an office with views of Manhattan, and she's waitressing on the side to make ends meet while looking for that rare opportunity to get a job at an environmental non-profit.

How many hackers do you know that would turn down a job at Google or Facebook and instead try to break into the (often insanely competitive) job market of public service? I'm not judging the people who wouldn't go down that road. I think they're like me and most people: personally moral, but not willing to put a larger moral cause ahead of their own self-interest. That's fine, and the way it should be. But it's ridiculous to be that way then get self-congratulatory just because you write some scathing internet screeds complaining about the man.

I'd estimate that about 10-12% of Stanford Law's graduating class each year goes into public interest work or government work. Can you imagine what the political landscape would look like if 10-12% of Stanford UG's engineering graduates each year went into public interest jobs or into government (to change policy from the inside?)

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#28

Post by toyg » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 2:58 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #21

ChikkaChiChi wrote: post #7

The article misses a rather large point: We (meaning the tech elite) are the first army in human history to be less concerned with the acquisition of power and control and more about giving that empowerment to the individuals we fight for. Hear me out. Those of us over the age of 30 are mostly digital immigrants. We remember a world without CallerID, a PC in every office, and a global network interconnecting all the…

What a bunch of egocentric, self-aggrandizing tripe. > are the first army in human history to be less concerned with the acquisition of power and control and more about giving that empowerment to the individuals we fight for. Everyone who calls to arms thinks that. Most radicals end up being more oppressive than the regimes they replaced. Forward progress has, much more often, come incrementally, from the U.S.'s very…

"Conservative revolutionary ideals"? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" -- this was political and philosophical dynamite in the XVIII century, when kings and gods still reigned supreme over the whole world (in fact, it still is quite an incendiary statement in many countries). What were the writers trying to "conserve", exactly?

"U.K.'s bloodless internal revolutions"? Cromwell's Civil War was many things, but bloodless is not one of them.

I may or may not agree with parent, but your statements are very peculiar indeed.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#29

Post by signal9 » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 3:01 PM UTC

w_t_payne wrote: post #24

jenius wrote: post #3

I've gotta agree with Appelbaum - this thesis is ridiculous and unsupported. There are tons of activists in many different fields, and there's nothing about being a computer programmer that makes you more likely to be an activist. Just because this guy cited a couple of activists who were also computer programmers is just not support enough -- if he really wanted a balanced review, he would have talked about any acti…

FWIW: A lot of terrorists had/have an engineering background.

This is what you can likely to expect to hear on television in the coming months.

Re: Hackers vs. suits: Why nerds become leakers

#30

Post by lmm » Thu, Jun 13, 2013, 3:04 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #27

Hackers tend to be passive, arm-chair, activists. Twittering on the internet and feeding outrage to each other, but never actually getting engaged to solve real issues. How many hackers do you know that have dedicated their entire careers to causes in the public service? In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go…

>In comparison, I look around at my friends who majored in liberal arts. I know a double-digit number of people who turned down six figure jobs to go into public service for a fraction of the money. One of my best friends wants to save the environment. The summer after our second year of school, I went to go intern at a firm, which gave me a $1k/month lunch budget and a guaranteed job after graduation, while she went to intern for the EPA which rarely hires anyone after graduation. Now, I've got an office with views of Manhattan, and she's waitressing on the side to make ends meet while looking for that rare opportunity to get a job at an environmental non-profit.

Inputs are much less important than outputs. Sure, a greater proportion non-hackers make conspicuous lifestyle changes in the name of their chosen cause. But how much real difference has your friend made except to her waitressing patrons? By contrast someone who figured out how to save 1% of the electricity used at facebook has made a huge contribution to the environment, which is in no way diminished by the fact that they were well paid for doing so.