Live data from Hacker News

Retina Mac External display problem

github.com

21–30 of 42 posts

Re: Retina Mac External display problem

#21
post #20

Just a guess: The patterns in the examples seem to be horizontal, meaning the raw (pre 'cable encoding', usually 8b/10b) bit pattern of the display output would be repetitive . It wouldn't be out of the question that a slightly improperly electrically balanced or terminated output could cause signal integrity issues, including ringing (voltage exceeds spec on rising / falling edges) which could trigger safeguard circ…

I don't have any electrical knowledge. care to elaborate?

Is that a problem with the cable, terminals on the devices, the mini-displayport dongle or either?

The problem also only seems to occur on Retina Macbook Pro's

Re: Retina Mac External display problem

#22
post #20

Just a guess: The patterns in the examples seem to be horizontal, meaning the raw (pre 'cable encoding', usually 8b/10b) bit pattern of the display output would be repetitive . It wouldn't be out of the question that a slightly improperly electrically balanced or terminated output could cause signal integrity issues, including ringing (voltage exceeds spec on rising / falling edges) which could trigger safeguard circ…

I don't have any electrical knowledge. care to elaborate? Is that a problem with the cable, terminals on the devices, the mini-displayport dongle or either? The problem also only seems to occur on Retina Macbook Pro's

If my guess is correct, it would be a problem in the design of the output transceiver circuit on the RMP's motherboard, assuming the cable and receiver in the display are built to spec.

Could be an IC issue, could be the impedance control of the connector, could be the impedance control of the traces on the circuit board, could be poorly chosen passives, could be interference from nearby circuits, etc.

I wish I could give you a better answer but high speed signal integrity is one of the most obtuse and most black art aspects of electronics design, there's a fair amount of non-intuitive physics going on, e.g. signals going down a wire don't just go, they 'ricochet' off impedance differences. It's far too large a topic to treat in a HN comment and its whole system encompassing so 'what it could be' is a large set.

These types of things are not uncommon in hardware development, especially with high speed signaling. The interactivity of such systems can be high and hard to predict fully at times.

EDIT: Simply put - display outputs scan top to bottom, left to right. The fact that the pattern that triggers the issue appears to be horizontal means it would occur in the raw bit stream of the output in a periodic way. That means there is some low order frequency in the system caused by this pattern (maybe it repeats every 500khz or something like that). If there is something in the electronics of the output of the RMBp that resonates at that frequency (easier than you think), then it could possibly cause the described failure.

Re: Retina Mac External display problem

#24
post #20

Just a guess: The patterns in the examples seem to be horizontal, meaning the raw (pre 'cable encoding', usually 8b/10b) bit pattern of the display output would be repetitive . It wouldn't be out of the question that a slightly improperly electrically balanced or terminated output could cause signal integrity issues, including ringing (voltage exceeds spec on rising / falling edges) which could trigger safeguard circ…

I don't have any electrical knowledge. care to elaborate? Is that a problem with the cable, terminals on the devices, the mini-displayport dongle or either? The problem also only seems to occur on Retina Macbook Pro's

Sounds to me like your parent is suggesting it could be any and/or all of the above. Essentially, at very high speeds the whole link has to be very carefully balanced, so if any one piece is not built to a tight enough spec, things could fall apart.

Re: Retina Mac External display problem

#25
post #6

This must be exclusive to the Retina MacBook Pro, then, because my MacBook Air doesn't show the same symptoms.

So far, I've only been able to reproduce it on first-gen 15" Retina MacbookPro's

For what little it is worth, it doesn't repro on chromebook pixels.

Re: Retina Mac External display problem

#26
post #20

Just a guess: The patterns in the examples seem to be horizontal, meaning the raw (pre 'cable encoding', usually 8b/10b) bit pattern of the display output would be repetitive . It wouldn't be out of the question that a slightly improperly electrically balanced or terminated output could cause signal integrity issues, including ringing (voltage exceeds spec on rising / falling edges) which could trigger safeguard circ…

The readme mentions that the issue is reproducible in OSX and Windows which further supports your theory.

Re: Retina Mac External display problem

#27
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any electrical knowledge. care to elaborate? Is that a problem with the cable, terminals on the devices, the mini-displayport dongle or either? The problem also only seems to occur on Retina Macbook Pro's

If my guess is correct, it would be a problem in the design of the output transceiver circuit on the RMP's motherboard, assuming the cable and receiver in the display are built to spec. Could be an IC issue, could be the impedance control of the connector, could be the impedance control of the traces on the circuit board, could be poorly chosen passives, could be interference from nearby circuits, etc. I wish I could…

I have a newfound respect for electrical engineers.

Re: Retina Mac External display problem

#30
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any electrical knowledge. care to elaborate? Is that a problem with the cable, terminals on the devices, the mini-displayport dongle or either? The problem also only seems to occur on Retina Macbook Pro's

If my guess is correct, it would be a problem in the design of the output transceiver circuit on the RMP's motherboard, assuming the cable and receiver in the display are built to spec. Could be an IC issue, could be the impedance control of the connector, could be the impedance control of the traces on the circuit board, could be poorly chosen passives, could be interference from nearby circuits, etc. I wish I could…

This is the sort of black art debugging that makes electronics both frustrating and fun :-)
Post reply on HN