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Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

nytimes.com

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Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#91

Post by jacoblyles »

mtgx wrote: post #13
Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

Are you going to get the President's party to support the impeachment of his elected officials?

USGov is broken.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#92

Post by jacoblyles »

monsterix wrote: post #9
junto wrote: post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

No it hasn't. And they'll have to budge, or go out. Too much money has been put (It's the tax-payers money) and value gained (doesn't it sound like finding terrorists this way is as bad as finding the next superstar for Hollywood?) is near-negligible in contrast to the value eroded: trust that's been destroyed - particularly in Internet companies - both inside and outside of US. Think again. > Our only choice is to a…

The American people would never stand for a dictator in name. But they would stand for powerful permanent bureaucrats that no elected official had the ability to push around.

6 of one, half-dozen of the other.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#93

Post by jacoblyles »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #39
sigzero wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Those who do not vote have the right to complain." Yup, I just won't listen to them.

So you won't listen to, say, people convicted of minor drug crimes, or who have otherwise been disenfranchised for any of a wide variety of reasons, some good and some not-so-good?

You live in a Democratic country. Is it any surprise that the majority of educated people are committed true-believers in the Democratic process, despite all evidence that it may be broken?

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#94

Post by grappler »

Event: A bunch of schoolchildren are brutally murdered by a guy with a gun.

Conversation in the media: Maybe citizens shouldn't have guns. At least not guns that can easily fire lots of rounds in a short period of time.

Massive well-funded response: Don't even think about it. This is a violation of a constitutional right (2nd amendment) which is a vital protection against a tyrannical government.

Result: Attempt to pass a bill in congress fails.

Event: Guy with access to highly classified information concerning massive surveillance programs leaks some of this information to the press, which makes some of that information public.

Conversation in the media: This sounds like George Orwell's “1984”. The government is monitoring everyone and lying to congress and to the people about it. The laws, interpretations and court rulings are all secret, preventing accountability. People should know what their government is doing.

Pitiful response from lots of people with no clout: Stop tracking all our calls, movements and internet traffic. This is a violation of our constitutional rights (1st and 4th amendments) which are a vital protection against a tyrannical government.

Counter-response from establishment people with lots of clout: This is necessary to protect you from terrorists.

Result: TBD...

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#95

Post by sneak »

grappler wrote: post #94

Event: A bunch of schoolchildren are brutally murdered by a guy with a gun. Conversation in the media: Maybe citizens shouldn't have guns. At least not guns that can easily fire lots of rounds in a short period of time. Massive well-funded response: Don't even think about it. This is a violation of a constitutional right (2nd amendment) which is a vital protection against a tyrannical government. Result: Attempt to p…

I think you are oversimplifying a very complex system.

Silly gun control (which is ineffective at addressing the threat to which it responds) isn't simply difficult to get passed because the NRA has a lot of money.

Conversely, in the second example, the clout/well-funded comparison argument is similarly ineffective.

It's not really that parallel, and there are a lot more factors involved.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#96

Post by darkarmani »

conroe64 wrote: post #52

There probably won't be any prosecution because Snowden most likely defected to the Chinese government. It may have been his plan all along. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would love to leave their families, and be considered a hero by the general public, and live their life comfortably in another country. Given all the secrets he probably has that he hasn't released, he would be a very valuable res…

> There probably won't be any prosecution because Snowden most likely defected to the Chinese government.

Or maybe he defected to Brazil? There's no proof one way or another, so let's just pick random countries and speculate.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#97

Post by bo1024 »

trebor wrote: post #58
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

I know a retired NSA analyst. When I asked him what he thought of the NSA wiretaps, etc, he was silent for a bit. Then he said one of the most important things I've heard politically (paraphrased, I wish I wrote it down): > The organization is only as good as its administrative head, and the NSA I served in was widely different from the one that exists today. The problem is that the administration, the Congress, the…

Part of the point is that we shouldn't have a system whose morality depends on individuals. Individuals are fallible. A system that is susceptible to the failures (or moral deficiencies) of people is bound to fail sooner or later.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#98

Post by richeb »

Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

All federal prosecution is done under the Justice Department, which is part of the executive branch-- as is the IRS, NSA, FBI, etc.

So, if the president is fine with them lying to congress, there isn't anything congress can do short of impeaching and removing the president. Good luck with that.

I remember during the Bush years where administration leaders were flat out ignoring congressional subpoenas, and there was nothing the investigating committee members could do to force them to show up since the justice department was instructed not to act.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#99

Post by egsec »

I don't know if anyone read the onsite comments, but I don't know if this is funny or true:

"Simple question, why wasn’t Snowden’s girlfriend a Spook? Back in the 1990s, if any nerd/geek/brain had access to Top Secret data then one of 17 U.S. agencies would have paired such a person with a beautiful girlfriend with similar level of clearance with whom he could talk just so he wouldn’t run away or leak, and said girlfriend would go on to become wife and pop out a kid or two, preventing said nerd/geek/brain from ever leaking (even if he ran away) just to avoid starving his kid/s because their mommy would lose her security clearance. What happened to America after 9-11? Fear got rid of all the common sense? lol.

Let me guess, the Carlyles went Boozing with Allen and Hamilton and they supplied the intelligence community with so many thousands of geeks and nerds that America’s 17 intelligence services ran out of beautiful women with whom to keep them in line. Ofcourse Snowden would leave his pole dancing, nature loving girlfriend of 8 years (with whom he couldn’t talk about anything and who couldn’t share the burden to his conscience because she had no security clearance) to blow the whistle and expose the alarming surveillance of innocent Americans who have no way to prove their innocence if their innocent words and second or third degree online associations mistakenly put them under suspicion and surveillance just because some computer algorithm got triggered. Just how many Americans are under suspicion right now? What are the numbers exactly? Thousands? Millions? lol."

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#100

Post by nijk »

trebor wrote: post #58
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

I know a retired NSA analyst. When I asked him what he thought of the NSA wiretaps, etc, he was silent for a bit. Then he said one of the most important things I've heard politically (paraphrased, I wish I wrote it down): > The organization is only as good as its administrative head, and the NSA I served in was widely different from the one that exists today. The problem is that the administration, the Congress, the…

When was you friend working for the agancy under good leadership? During the Bay of Pigs? Vietnam War? Afghanistan (the first time)? The South American banana republics? Iran-Contra?

(Perhaps these are more CIA issues, and NSA was rather tame in the past.)

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