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Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

nytimes.com

31–40 of 103 posts

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#31

"In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve." - Alexis de Tocqueville In a sense, Americans deserve what they got. They chose to re-elect the same party (Democratic/Republican party, is there a difference really?) over and over again when there is an alternative in the libertarian party which by the way, would most certainly not authorize or encourage what the NSA has been up to. Regardless of your po…

Those who do not vote have the right to complain. And those who do, also have the right because everyone is brainwashed. Government is not some magical entity, it is a group of armed bandits who claim to represent the whole society for the "common good" at each individual's expense. It's just religious excuse. People do not deserve to be threatened to surrender property, secrets and liberties that they arrange freely…

> Saying "you deserve your government" is like saying "you deserve to be raped because you didn't try to avoid it hard enough".

I meant Americans as a group, not the individuals. Also, while I mostly agree with you, I certainly hope you do not get into politics. This kind of discourse is fine amongst people who are already like minded but will assuredly fail to convince anyone who does not already share your ideas. I hope you realize that and tone it down a little according to your audience even if you are right.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#32
post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

Large, multi-billion dollar projects have been cancelled by the US in the past for merely being over-budget for too long. The NSA does quite a bit that I doubt would even be at risk of going on the chopping block, though I really have no idea what the NSA budget looks like. Unclassified national supercomputing, for example, is pretty intertwined with the NSA, and I doubt that will be threatened, even if their data collection/storage efforts are. 'Those systems' aren't much more than data centers and people--things can change.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#33
post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

Cost and value don't apply here. Honestly, I think they've provided very little value. The fundamental truth is that terrorists are still a tiny minority and while they may have disrupted an attack or even a few, they didn't stop Boston and there simply haven't been hundreds of legitimate plans. That leaves insane costs with little to no intentional value and tremendous risk for corruption. Hard to shutdown but not i…

Their are a large number of secret 'fiefdoms' that have been created since 9/11. The people in those positions of power do not want to see those positions threatened. Therefore, when you have such power and knowledge about everyone, you can also threaten anyone, since everyone has something to hide. Including senators, judges and presidents.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#35

"In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve." - Alexis de Tocqueville In a sense, Americans deserve what they got. They chose to re-elect the same party (Democratic/Republican party, is there a difference really?) over and over again when there is an alternative in the libertarian party which by the way, would most certainly not authorize or encourage what the NSA has been up to. Regardless of your po…

Those who do not vote have the right to complain. And those who do, also have the right because everyone is brainwashed. Government is not some magical entity, it is a group of armed bandits who claim to represent the whole society for the "common good" at each individual's expense. It's just religious excuse. People do not deserve to be threatened to surrender property, secrets and liberties that they arrange freely…

"Those who do not vote have the right to complain."

Yup, I just won't listen to them.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#36
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What purpose do comments as these serve to you? Encourage other people to be sheep? Such a small minded attitude to have, if you ask me. And insulting to all the people throughout history that time after time have sought to bring change, successfully and unsuccessfully. We all have pessimistic attitudes, but to make pointless comments like these, to me, it's like pollution; better to be a leader, no matter how small…

I don't think it's a defeatist position. The first step to devising an effective strategy is to acknowledge and understand reality. "Anything can change" is simply not true. Strategies based on fantasy will fail. This reality of ubiquitous surveillance is not going to change. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can direct our energy toward changes that might actually be possible. It's not that outlandish to say…

There is a world of different between being conscious and realistic about potential abilities (all communications being stored for example) and accepting this as a status quo, not challenging this and asserting that there is no alternative direction that it can be taken in.

At different points throughout history, it was unfathomable that women would be able to vote, black people would have equal rights or that dictator ships would end.

Is it realistic to think that these multi billion dollar projects would now be abandoned? It wouldn't be the first, in fact, a lot of these things are subjected to economic realities, any large financial project can come to a halt no matter how big the investment. Pressures can come politically, socially, technologically and economically, thinking certain things are set in stone, that's not just unrealistic, it is defeatist, pessimistic, and negative.

As for personal strategies, there's also a world of difference between settling for the status quo and working to fight against it, even in small ways. It's a different starting point, instead of powerlessness, it's a position of power. Want to diminish snooping? Be more discerning about what data you make available, close your FB account for example. That's saying: I don't accept the status quo set by corporations and agencies. That's just a small example. Choose webservices that provide better safeguards and respect personal data. Another small example.

I'm all for accepting reality if it means that in doing one can recognize a status quo that needs to be changed while understanding that a 'new' reality starts with an idea that change is possible, if not inevitable.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#37

"In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve." - Alexis de Tocqueville In a sense, Americans deserve what they got. They chose to re-elect the same party (Democratic/Republican party, is there a difference really?) over and over again when there is an alternative in the libertarian party which by the way, would most certainly not authorize or encourage what the NSA has been up to. Regardless of your po…

> In a sense, Americans deserve what they got. They chose to re-elect the same party (Democratic/Republican party, is there a difference really?) over and over again

Sure, there's a pretty big difference both practically and in terms of ideological PR (those two differences don't, of course, align perfectly; the former is largely, but not entirely, a subset of the latter.)

So, no, they didn't choose to re-elect the same party over and over again.

> when there is an alternative in the libertarian party which by the way, would most certainly not authorize or encourage what the NSA has been up to.

I'm not at all certain of that. Sure, the Libertarian Party ideological PR isn't that, but we really have no idea what the LP in practice would be like, and we certainly know that parties' ideological PR and actual actions in office are rarely universally consistent (and we know that from far more examples than just the US Democrats and Republicans, as its true of virtually every political party in existence.)

Further, I think its not all that true that the American people freely choose any party; each individual American voter makes a decision of how to maximize value out of a fixed game that is tilted in their favor, and where they have much less power to address the fundamental problems in the electoral structure than they have to choose to minimize the harms within the structure.

And, frankly, too many of the people who try to sell alternatives to the major parties aren't interested at all in exerting effort to get people behind measures that would actually fix the electoral structure to increase the potential for alternative parties to be viable. In addition to the fact that this makes it virtually impossible for them to succeed, since they aren't willing to highlight and correct the primary barrier to their success, it also makes me suspicious of both their honesty of purpose and their competence to follow through on their purpose if elected, since they either lack the former or have far too weak a grasp on the structure of the government they seek to run to have much of the latter.

> Regardless of your political inclinations, I would strongly suggest you consider voting for them if only to shake up the establishment.

For people who understand that political activity isn't limited to voting, there are a lot more effective means of shaking up the establishment than voting for a third party that you might agree with on only a very narrow range of issues for that purpose. In fact, of all the successful movements that shook up the establishment and shifted the ground of American politics, I can think of exactly zero for whom that was a central part of how they succeeded.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#38
post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

As a non-American, this is in fact the only course of action. I both have no control over the NSA and am considered to have less rights.

"No taxation without representation" or something?

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who do not vote have the right to complain. And those who do, also have the right because everyone is brainwashed. Government is not some magical entity, it is a group of armed bandits who claim to represent the whole society for the "common good" at each individual's expense. It's just religious excuse. People do not deserve to be threatened to surrender property, secrets and liberties that they arrange freely…

"Those who do not vote have the right to complain." Yup, I just won't listen to them.

So you won't listen to, say, people convicted of minor drug crimes, or who have otherwise been disenfranchised for any of a wide variety of reasons, some good and some not-so-good?

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#40
post #13

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

> Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

The influential people in Congress, by and large, want to be the next guy, be appointed to a high position by the next guy, or have influence with the next guy while remaining in Congress, so this is perhaps unsurprising.

Coupled with the fact that FPTP, single-member district elections (for the legislative branch, with even strong two-party incentives in the indirecte executive elections) tend to produce a weakly ideological and more strongly tribal party system, and a greater expectation than in a multiparty system for the average legislator that "we may not like it when their guy is in charge, but we need not to cripple the office for when we get back in charge", well, the results are what should be expected.

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