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Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

nytimes.com

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Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#21

Post by olalonde »

junto wrote: post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

In my opinion, the situation is much worse now because government can now openly use those tools without having to bear the cost of revealing their capabilities. Before PRISM came to light, they wouldn't have dared to use it for an IRS investigation because they would have ran the risk of revealing their spying activities. Now that everyone knows, they don't run this risk anymore.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#22

Post by icebraining »

pfortuny wrote: post #2

Well, at least this sets some balance against Brooks and (have just read it, what a shame...), Friedman! [1] [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/friedman-blowing-a...

It's amazing how he refers to the Boston Marathon bombing, when that happened despite having NSA monitoring and despite the FBI having warnings from Russia and from informants of the Joint Terrorism Task Force about one of the brothers.

"We can't find the needle. I know, let's stack more hay on top, that'll help!"

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#23

Post by TheCondor »

junto wrote: post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

Cost and value don't apply here. Honestly, I think they've provided very little value. The fundamental truth is that terrorists are still a tiny minority and while they may have disrupted an attack or even a few, they didn't stop Boston and there simply haven't been hundreds of legitimate plans.

That leaves insane costs with little to no intentional value and tremendous risk for corruption. Hard to shutdown but not impossible.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#24

Post by notacoward »

pknight wrote: post #15
junto wrote: post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

What purpose do comments as these serve to you? Encourage other people to be sheep? Such a small minded attitude to have, if you ask me. And insulting to all the people throughout history that time after time have sought to bring change, successfully and unsuccessfully. We all have pessimistic attitudes, but to make pointless comments like these, to me, it's like pollution; better to be a leader, no matter how small…

I don't think it's a defeatist position. The first step to devising an effective strategy is to acknowledge and understand reality. "Anything can change" is simply not true. Strategies based on fantasy will fail. This reality of ubiquitous surveillance is not going to change. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can direct our energy toward changes that might actually be possible. It's not that outlandish to say that we can't prevent the information from being gathered. Can we exert some control over what's done with it? Can we add some meaningful accountability? Who watches the watchers, and how can they do so without invading people's privacy themselves? These are questions we should be addressing even if we think we can prevent or limit the data gathering, and if we can't then that vain hope will have distracted us from other approaches while those were still feasible.

I am playing devil's advocate a bit here. I actually do believe that we can stop data gathering on this scale. However, I don't have the certainty that comes from ignorance, nor the hauteur to condemn someone else for reaching a different conclusion. Let others have their say, even if you disagree. The urge to quash dissent is exactly what we're fighting.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#25

Post by olalonde »

"In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve." - Alexis de Tocqueville

In a sense, Americans deserve what they got. They chose to re-elect the same party (Democratic/Republican party, is there a difference really?) over and over again when there is an alternative in the libertarian party which by the way, would most certainly not authorize or encourage what the NSA has been up to. Regardless of your political inclinations, I would strongly suggest you consider voting for them if only for the sake of shaking up the establishment.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#26

Post by defuzz »

joshuak wrote: post #6

As Bruce Schneier points out in his book Beyond Fear humans are very bad at assessing risk accurately. Ask yourself how scared are you of terrorist attacks vs. heart disease. Notice how the government is putting much more money into the terrorist attack threat then the heart disease threat? Here are some of the reasons why people are so bad and assessing risk: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/five_neglec…

At a certain degree quantification and comparing numbers is just stupid, and Bruce is still right we suck at this, and so is he.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#27

Post by oleganza »

olalonde wrote: post #25

"In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve." - Alexis de Tocqueville In a sense, Americans deserve what they got. They chose to re-elect the same party (Democratic/Republican party, is there a difference really?) over and over again when there is an alternative in the libertarian party which by the way, would most certainly not authorize or encourage what the NSA has been up to. Regardless of your po…

Those who do not vote have the right to complain. And those who do, also have the right because everyone is brainwashed. Government is not some magical entity, it is a group of armed bandits who claim to represent the whole society for the "common good" at each individual's expense. It's just religious excuse. People do not deserve to be threatened to surrender property, secrets and liberties that they arrange freely between each other for some "common good" invented by priests and presidents.

Saying "you deserve your government" is like saying "you deserve to be raped because you didn't try to avoid it hard enough".

I don't care about losing money because of taxes. But if government kills people and I cannot withdraw financial support for it, then it bothers me. Then, its real mafia face is exposed. "Go vote for change, but still pay for our activity."

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#28

Post by reinhardt »

monsterix wrote: post #9
junto wrote: post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

No it hasn't. And they'll have to budge, or go out. Too much money has been put (It's the tax-payers money) and value gained (doesn't it sound like finding terrorists this way is as bad as finding the next superstar for Hollywood?) is near-negligible in contrast to the value eroded: trust that's been destroyed - particularly in Internet companies - both inside and outside of US. Think again. > Our only choice is to a…

The problem is (most) people seem to be ok with the have-nothing-to-hide argument. Unless the public opinion on this is inverted, there's not much hope for change I'm afraid.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#29

Post by Ygg2 »

monsterix wrote: post #9
junto wrote: post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

No it hasn't. And they'll have to budge, or go out. Too much money has been put (It's the tax-payers money) and value gained (doesn't it sound like finding terrorists this way is as bad as finding the next superstar for Hollywood?) is near-negligible in contrast to the value eroded: trust that's been destroyed - particularly in Internet companies - both inside and outside of US. Think again. > Our only choice is to a…

>You sound low here, but if the above were true then it'd mean that people are willing to live under a dictator too. That's simply untrue.

It's true now. But it might be true in future. Hate to sound pessimistic but there are benefits (however perverse they are) to dictatorship.

You aren't pestered every year to vote (unless it's a democratic dictator that rigs the elections). You aren't asked about lot of things. You don't have to worry about saving the environment or your impact, just what he does. Things most people dislike like gays or immigrants is taken care of by a dictator. As long as he doesn't piss off too many people or too influential people, he's golden (and even then). Also dictators are more predictable then a nation to deal with.

Dictatorship are great if your nation is compromised of lazy, mostly irresponsible people.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#30

Post by larryCh »

joshuak wrote: post #6

As Bruce Schneier points out in his book Beyond Fear humans are very bad at assessing risk accurately. Ask yourself how scared are you of terrorist attacks vs. heart disease. Notice how the government is putting much more money into the terrorist attack threat then the heart disease threat? Here are some of the reasons why people are so bad and assessing risk: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/five_neglec…

Given this known bias politicians then have stronger incentives to try to prevent terrorist attacks (as opposed to heart attacks).

It may also be the case that our perception is that politicians can have a more direct impact on terrorist attacks than on heart attacks.

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