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Fertile Ground

marco.org

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Re: Fertile Ground

#91

Post by fpgeek »

kunai wrote: post #28
bitops wrote: post #19

I hope I'm not in some crazy minority here, but I actually value stability and UIs not changing radically all the time. I feel like there's a craze afoot at the moment to "redesign everything all the time" and I'm not a big fan of it. If you're in tech, sure, it's the "price of progress" but for the lay user (i.e. the people who pay us money for software) it's just annoying.

I'm in the same minority as you, but you can't deny that iOS 7 was a necessary change, and not one just for the sake of it.

Just because a change was necessary doesn't mean this change was necessary.

I'm still flabbergasted that Apple did their big overhaul (apparently) without addressing inter-application communication, default apps, Siri APIs or most of the other "power user" issues that would have helped them grow their computing paradigm. To me, increasing the scope and power of iOS devices while maintaining the predictability and control that are at the heart of Apple's take on mobile/touch-based computing is the problem Apple has to solve over the next few years. Judging from what I've heard about iOS 7, it sounds like Apple couldn't disagree more.

Re: Fertile Ground

#92

Post by sillysaurus »

pazimzadeh wrote: post #33
gwern wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> getting excited about fewer choices and lower quality > laughing his way to the bank Error: type mismatch identified.

What users need is not more choice; as Marco said, the App Store is crowded. What users need is higher quality apps, which iOS 7 will purportedly enable. Therefore, developers who take advantage of this opportunity will make more money than those who don't. I am using the beta on my primary phone, and I am starting to see what Marco is talking about.

There's a fallacy in your reasoning: that quality wins.

This isn't always true. Word of mouth is a much more powerful force than raw quality. Look at eBay, for example.

Most apps luckily don't have many network effects. But I won't be switching PDF readers just because the new one looks more like iOS 7.

Re: Fertile Ground

#93

Post by ghshephard »

untog wrote: post #63
ghshephard wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Combine Marco and Gruber's [1] insight - This is a major house cleaning/forest fire. Someone (Jony, et al.) has stepped back, looked at the confusion that has developed over the last 3-5 years on the iPhone, and has decided to recreate the iPhone as a conceptual platform. The introduction (and hopefully consistency) of multiple dimensions onto the phone, and a cross-system approach towards geometry, means that iOS7 w…

iOS7 will be a complete re-think of how applications work and behave on the iPhone. Of course it won't. That just reads like hyperbole. Apps on iOS7 will work almost entirely the same as they do on iOS6 and below.

Listen to half a dozen developers at WWDC right now - see if, based on what they have seen so far with the DP, if they aren't completely rethinking their approach towards how their apps need to work/behave to feel "modern?"

I'm not up in the city right now, but from the few podcasts I've listened to - people are already commenting on how "dated" their app feels.

And - with the exception of the Mail/Calendar (Apple Favoritism, at its worst) and wacky "geofencing wakeup in the background techniques", all of our backgrounded Apps on iOS have basically gone to sleep permanently (until user pulled them back into the foreground) unless they were a GPS/VOIP/Music/Newstand app (and even some newsstand apps performed poorly with background downloads - I'm looking at you NYT).

In addition to the 3-D geometry (where I'm expecting lots of slide over sheets as a new metaphor) - I think all developers are right now considering how they can take advantage of an App that they can "wake up" remotely from a notification and perform activity with.

Re: Fertile Ground

#94

Post by ben336 »

tolmasky wrote: post #34

Yay change for change's sake. This is exactly the wrong attitude in my opinion. How does it help users to all of a sudden have most apps feel ancient? Is it really something to be proud of? That for the next year we'll be working on replacing existing utilities so that they feel "right" and "fresh" instead of doing what we should be doing: thinking of actual new software that is worthwhile to write. I've been saying…

I think Marco is saying this is good from an independent ios developers perspective, not necessarily from a users perspective. As somebody who makes his living as an independent app developer, I'm sure he's thrilled about this. Its undeniably an opportunity for independent developers who don't have to maintain an existing app. Whether its good for users or the ecosystem in general is a totally different discussion.

Re: Fertile Ground

#95

Post by Samuel_Michon »

btipling wrote: post #24
chasing wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not fragmentation. Within a year, the vast majority of iOS users will be on iOS 7. It's evolution.

Except for all those not so old iPhones that are stuck on iOS 6 forever.

> those not so old iPhones that are stuck on iOS 6 forever.

Of all the devices supported by iOS 6, only the iPhone 3G S and the 4th gen iPod touch won’t get the upgrade. The iPads that could run iOS 6 will also be able to run iOS 7.

The iPhone 4 has been out for 3 years and will be able to run iOS 7 when it is released later this year. How many 3 year old Android, Blackberry and Windows Phone models do you know of that can run the newest version of the OS?

(This post was edited to reflect that the 4th gen iPod touch won’t get the upgrade to iOS 7. The ‘iPod touch 16GB’ was listed on iOS 7’s page, I understood that to mean the 4th gen model, which also came in 16GB capacity.)

Re: Fertile Ground

#96

Post by untog »

ghshephard wrote: post #93
untog wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS7 will be a complete re-think of how applications work and behave on the iPhone. Of course it won't. That just reads like hyperbole. Apps on iOS7 will work almost entirely the same as they do on iOS6 and below.

Listen to half a dozen developers at WWDC right now - see if, based on what they have seen so far with the DP, if they aren't completely rethinking their approach towards how their apps need to work/behave to feel "modern?" I'm not up in the city right now, but from the few podcasts I've listened to - people are already commenting on how "dated" their app feels. And - with the exception of the Mail/Calendar (Apple Fa…

Background downloads will change apps, sure. But does that really constitute a "complete re-think of how applications work"? It's the same feature, just implementable in a better way.

And people are in shock after years of iOS looking pretty much the same. When everyone actually looks at things objectively, they'll realise that their apps need to look a little different, behave a little different, but overall be pretty much the same apps they were before.

Re: Fertile Ground

#97

Post by rustydoorknobs »

tolmasky wrote: post #34

Yay change for change's sake. This is exactly the wrong attitude in my opinion. How does it help users to all of a sudden have most apps feel ancient? Is it really something to be proud of? That for the next year we'll be working on replacing existing utilities so that they feel "right" and "fresh" instead of doing what we should be doing: thinking of actual new software that is worthwhile to write. I've been saying…

I agree with you, but I think that an occasional design shakeup hits people on a different level, subconsciously. A new look affects the feel of an application, which can actually affect how people view the substantial portions of an app.

Re: Fertile Ground

#98

Post by gfodor »

btipling wrote: post #10

It seems hypocritical to laud fragmentation when it happens in iOS and decry it in Android. These changes seem similar to the Android differences in gingerbread and post-honeycomb. The resulting effect on developers will be the same. iOS 7 has made it apparent which bloggers are unable or unwilling to be fair in their criticism when it comes to Apple. The mismatched gradients on the new icons are beautiful to them, t…

Fragmentation implies "fragments". iOS 6 has a 93% install base. An ever-shrinking 7% isn't much of a fragment to worry about. iOS 7, due to it's new shiny factor, will likely see an even faster adoption than iOS 6.

Re: Fertile Ground

#99

Post by RaphiePS »

jbail wrote: post #30
Samuel_Michon wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One change highlighted in the keynote presentation: instead of tapping the ‘Back’ button on the upper left corner of a UITableView layout, in iOS 7 you swipe horizontally from the left edge of the screen. There are many more changes, you can read about them in the new iOS 7 Human Interface Guidelines: http://www.slideshare.net/evgenybelyaev16/mobile-hig-2278458...

Excellent point on swiping horizontally instead of a "Back" button. That's a great change, but one I already try to incorporate as the dedicated header bar is (or was) distinctly iOS. If I'm building a cross-platform app (or have the intention of going cross-platform eventually), I try to steer clear of any interactions or UI elements that are too obviously from one platform or another. I really appreciate apps that…

I agree that Dots is great, but it's a game--the UI is by nature specifically tailored to the application.

If I'm using a news reader or productivity app, I hate having to spend time learning a novel interface. The more conventional the UI, the more easily and quickly I can use it. Unless uniqueness adds a tangible benefit, it's just a pain in the butt.

Re: Fertile Ground

#100

Post by joezydeco »

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #95
btipling wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for all those not so old iPhones that are stuck on iOS 6 forever.

> those not so old iPhones that are stuck on iOS 6 forever. Of all the devices supported by iOS 6, only the iPhone 3G S and the 4th gen iPod touch won’t get the upgrade. The iPads that could run iOS 6 will also be able to run iOS 7. The iPhone 4 has been out for 3 years and will be able to run iOS 7 when it is released later this year. How many 3 year old Android, Blackberry and Windows Phone models do you know of th…

The iPads and iPod touches that could run iOS 6 will also be able to run iOS 7.

My fourth generation iPod Touch runs iOS 6 but does not qualify for iOS 7. Fifth gen only.

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