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Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

reuters.com

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Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#51

Post by kleiba »

fosap wrote: post #46
DasIch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and UK military are usually stationed in somewhat small cities and are a very important part of the economy in these areas. Most people don't care about the fact that they are still here in Germany and those that do care are happy about the income they provide. Everytime they leave somewhere it's usually a source of great concern and not at all something to celebrate.

While nobody celebrates, i think you are overstating the relevance. The troops live in their own quarters, hire their own contractors and shop in their own tax-free shops. Maybe they are using caps, but the impact on the local economy seems minimal.

I beg to differ.

- Bavaria in fear for five US bases

http://www.merkur-online.de/aktuelles/politik/bayern-bangt-f...

- Effects for Bamberg: withdrawal of US troops brings about employment worries

http://www.radio-plassenburg.de/default.aspx?ID=7054&showNew...

(18,000 employees and a giant market in the surrounding areas are affected at the biggest US base in Grafenwöhr - after all, 15,000 family members of the troops live in the communities around the base.)

- Mannheim expects loss of 6 million Euro after pull-out of troops

http://www.t-online.de/regionales/id_42073640/mannheim-rechn...

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#52

Post by arrrg »

fosap wrote: post #46
DasIch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and UK military are usually stationed in somewhat small cities and are a very important part of the economy in these areas. Most people don't care about the fact that they are still here in Germany and those that do care are happy about the income they provide. Everytime they leave somewhere it's usually a source of great concern and not at all something to celebrate.

While nobody celebrates, i think you are overstating the relevance. The troops live in their own quarters, hire their own contractors and shop in their own tax-free shops. Maybe they are using caps, but the impact on the local economy seems minimal.

It’s enormous.

No, in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t matter at all, the wider German economy would not be affected, not to any kind of noticeable degree, but for the local community it would be devastating. Akin to the bankruptcy of some huge employer.

My parents are living a few dozen kilometers from one of the bases (so actually pretty far away, all things considered) that has actually been growing (as others were closed down more and more was moved there and centralized). It’s in the middle of nowhere, there is nothing else there.

My dad, a civil engineer, planned and executed quite a few infrastructure projects for the base. The base is also notoriously short on living space, so people working there have been spreading all over the region, renting apartments and houses. Heck, new houses have been built not half a kilometer from my parents’ home to house people from the base. (My parents own several houses and very nearly rented them or apartments in them to Americans several times. For some reason or other it always didn’t work out in the end but the demand is very obvious.)

This tiny version of suburbia was also recently built (by a German company) to provide more living space (cost: €200m).

Shopping and going to restaurants is also huge. No, those people in the base do not want to stay there all the time. They will go to the next bigger city or two and buy and eat stuff there. Or get drunk in some club. Frequently. More and more city marketing in the region is specifically targeting Americans.

Where my parents live the impact of this base closing down would already be negligible. We probably know one or two people who would lose their job because of it or would make noticeably less money – but the close you get the more devastating the impact would be.

Those most directly affected by the base – those who see it every day – are the least likely to want to close it, mostly for economic reasons.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#53

Post by pekk »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #31
onli wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the US already (slowly) withdrawing/reducing the stationed troops? Besides, germany wouldn't really have a chance. The few nuclear rockets we control would probably not be ready in time. The USA could just bomb germany down, like it was planned in case of a war with the UDSSR.

Germany itself isn't the only reason I doubt the US would attack Germany. If the US attacked Germany, I'm sure most of Europe would side with Germany at this point. So it would be akin to attacking all of Europe. Not something that's worth a single NSA leak, I'm sure.

Why is everyone in this discussion assuming that the US would be attacking Germany if not for the awesome deterrent power of the EU? Seriously?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#54

Post by pekk »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #43
1morepassword wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you call it there were almost half a million fully armed German troops stationed in the US? A great success for US board of tourism?

"How would you call it there were almost half a million fully armed German troops stationed in the US?" That would depend on whether they were there with U.S. government permission, wouldn't it?

Absolutely, as a US citizen I have no problem at all if Germans want to have a military cultural exchange program to bring some locality jobs ;)

It is not like we are in Germany to sack the villages and take slaves, or dictate policy

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#55

Post by pekk »

wahsd wrote: post #17

Stasi.? Germans are simply shying away from comparing it to the Nazis' unimaginable wet dream because of a very self-conscious sensitivity about the matter. But don't fool yourselves, ignoring other unrelated, horrible outcomes that were a consequence of the times, this level of surveillance is by far worse than anything that has ever existed in all of human history. It is tantamount to mind reading, and without a do…

If what is happening today is worse than anything ever, including the Holocaust you are referring to, then where are the facilities where the US is slaughtering women and children of ethnic minorities in order to eliminate them from the earth?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#57

Post by rdouble »

sentenza wrote: post #36
danbruc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to surveillance the Stasi did a way better job than any NS organisation.

While I principally agree with you, I must add that _the_ data protection related historical event that impressed me most is how the Nazis used the excellent Dutch census data that fell into their hands to round up the Jews of the Netherlands. I don't know how widespread knowledge of this is (I was taught it in school), but I've heard it brought up a few times in discussions about personal data.

The Stasi weren't involved with that, as they did not exist until 1950.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#58

Post by TallGuyShort »

pekk wrote: post #53
TallGuyShort wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany itself isn't the only reason I doubt the US would attack Germany. If the US attacked Germany, I'm sure most of Europe would side with Germany at this point. So it would be akin to attacking all of Europe. Not something that's worth a single NSA leak, I'm sure.

Why is everyone in this discussion assuming that the US would be attacking Germany if not for the awesome deterrent power of the EU? Seriously?

What in my post led you to believe I think there's even a remote chance of that happening?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#59

Post by Smrchy »

The last time Obama held a public speech in Berlin he was cheered like he was Michael Jackson and the Pope in one person. This was before he was elected for his first term.

Back then there was no need to preselect his audience. Tens of thousands just came to celebrate him. It will be interesting to see how he is greeted by the German public this time. In Berlin. At the Branderburger Tor. Will he talk about freedom?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#60

Post by lostlogin »

rz2k wrote: post #40
Cass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the ci…

It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. The US military has a policy of being forward deployed around the globe, so it negotiates agreements with may countries around the world to station troops in strategic locations. The military bases are there as a result of legal agreements and treaties, not because they would forcibly resist any attempts to expel them, and there is no sentime…

Ahh, so it's forward deployment, not some modern version of colonialism. It should be noted that US bases aren't always loved or even well tolerated. See Japan, Iraq, Afghanistan et al.
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