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Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

reuters.com

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Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#41

Post by ericd »

arianvanp wrote: post #34
wahsd wrote: post #17

Stasi.? Germans are simply shying away from comparing it to the Nazis' unimaginable wet dream because of a very self-conscious sensitivity about the matter. But don't fool yourselves, ignoring other unrelated, horrible outcomes that were a consequence of the times, this level of surveillance is by far worse than anything that has ever existed in all of human history. It is tantamount to mind reading, and without a do…

You're confusing WWII germany and post WWII germany. Stasi was the ministry for homeland security of East-Germany in the post-WWII era untill the fall of the wall (1950- 1989). It has nothing to do with the Nazis (1930ish to 1945) The Stasi was a way to take hold of the country and get it stable again after the nazi regime fell. Though they did that by turning _EAST_ (not west) germany into a police state.

If anyone's interested in learning a bit more about the Stasi, The Lives of Others is a great film about a man who works for the Stasi, tasked with spying on some influential people.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#42

Post by sliverstorm »

Swizec wrote: post #33
onli wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the US already (slowly) withdrawing/reducing the stationed troops? Besides, germany wouldn't really have a chance. The few nuclear rockets we control would probably not be ready in time. The USA could just bomb germany down, like it was planned in case of a war with the UDSSR.

Except for the tiny fact that you attack Germany, you attack EU. And that's pretty much a world war right there. Nobody wants another world war, don't be silly. M.A.D. still exists by the way. It's still why all major nations are at peace and why the EU gave so much flak to the US a few years ago when Bush wanted to install a nuclear shield. He later had to back down or serious stuff would've happened. (afaik) Also,…

Nobody wants another world war, don't be silly.

But... but... what about childish power fantasies and world conquest?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#43

Post by Turing_Machine »

1morepassword wrote: post #7
hga wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Wikipedia, as of 2010 the US military has 52,440 people in Germany, and as of 2013 the German military had 188,921 active personnel and as of 2010 144,000 in their reserves. That falls a bit short of "occupation" in my book. There has in fact been at least one technothriller based on the US military fighting its way out of Germany, based of course on the Anabasis ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(…

How would you call it there were almost half a million fully armed German troops stationed in the US? A great success for US board of tourism?

"How would you call it there were almost half a million fully armed German troops stationed in the US?"

That would depend on whether they were there with U.S. government permission, wouldn't it?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#44

Post by fosap »

uh_oh wrote: post #3

Thumbs up for this coming from the conservative party as well. As others have said, this really is a bi-partisan issue and we should build as broad a coalition of the unwilling as possible.

I do not expect to much. Our governments are extremly careful not to interfere with US interests. Stasi documents about the CIA? Unlawfully given to the CIA and not published. The man responsible is now the president. Merkel, started her career in the pro-dictatorship eastern CDU. Worked for the FDJ (somewhat GDR equivalent to the Hilter youth) as PR manager.

Not doing anything against the abduction of Kurznatz by the CIA. "Opposing" the Iraq war, but allow the US air fields to operate. It goes on and on and on. This is just a little rethorics. See also: Isle "facebook" Eigner.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#45

Post by fosap »

sliverstorm wrote: post #42
Swizec wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the tiny fact that you attack Germany, you attack EU. And that's pretty much a world war right there. Nobody wants another world war, don't be silly. M.A.D. still exists by the way. It's still why all major nations are at peace and why the EU gave so much flak to the US a few years ago when Bush wanted to install a nuclear shield. He later had to back down or serious stuff would've happened. (afaik) Also,…

Nobody wants another world war, don't be silly. But... but... what about childish power fantasies and world conquest?

That's how the prequells started.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#46

Post by fosap »

DasIch wrote: post #11
woah wrote: post #2

Not surprising. With the Gestapo, and then the Stasi, the Germans have an extensive cultural memory of the effects of comprehensive government surveillance of their lives. They are still surprisingly tolerant of the long term military occupation of their country by the US. It would have been interesting if Snowden had holed up in Germany instead of HK. I wonder if the inevitable US military extradition would have tes…

The US and UK military are usually stationed in somewhat small cities and are a very important part of the economy in these areas. Most people don't care about the fact that they are still here in Germany and those that do care are happy about the income they provide. Everytime they leave somewhere it's usually a source of great concern and not at all something to celebrate.

While nobody celebrates, i think you are overstating the relevance. The troops live in their own quarters, hire their own contractors and shop in their own tax-free shops. Maybe they are using caps, but the impact on the local economy seems minimal.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#47

Post by hga »

darkarmani wrote: post #27
1morepassword wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you call it there were almost half a million fully armed German troops stationed in the US? A great success for US board of tourism?

Hessians?

As it turns out I'm reading Washington's Crossing (http://www.amazon.com/Washingtons-Crossing-Pivotal-Moments-A...) and at the point where I'm at the Hessians are not enjoying the attacks they're receiving from the locals of occupied New Jersey (plus some raids from across the Delaware). Seems their thorough plundering wasn't well received....

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#48

Post by arrrg »

rz2k wrote: post #40
Cass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the ci…

It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. The US military has a policy of being forward deployed around the globe, so it negotiates agreements with may countries around the world to station troops in strategic locations. The military bases are there as a result of legal agreements and treaties, not because they would forcibly resist any attempts to expel them, and there is no sentime…

Well … to be honest I consider 1990 the year in which occupation ended and Germany got its full sovereignty back (with the 2+4 talks and reunification).

Technically that doesn’t matter at all because all through the cold war West-German and US interests were very tightly aligned (and when interests diverged a bit the US did give West-Germany enough freedom, though they hardly ever diverged much).

I mean, West-Berlin was most certainly occupied until 1990. It’s just that that was an occupation hardly anyone had a problem with.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#49

Post by fwenzel »

onli wrote: post #30
Cass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the ci…

Isn't the US already (slowly) withdrawing/reducing the stationed troops? Besides, germany wouldn't really have a chance. The few nuclear rockets we control would probably not be ready in time. The USA could just bomb germany down, like it was planned in case of a war with the UDSSR.

Slowly? They have been closing US military facilities in Germany for decades.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#50

Post by fwenzel »

njharman wrote: post #15
hga wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Wikipedia, as of 2010 the US military has 52,440 people in Germany, and as of 2013 the German military had 188,921 active personnel and as of 2010 144,000 in their reserves. That falls a bit short of "occupation" in my book. There has in fact been at least one technothriller based on the US military fighting its way out of Germany, based of course on the Anabasis ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(…

One year, 2010, is not long term. Germany had been heavily occupied (by several nations) from end of WWII until recently. Recently being last 20years or so.

{{citation-needed}}
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