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You commit three felonies a day

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Re: You commit three felonies a day

#161

Post by bmelton »

shpxnvz wrote: post #160
bmelton wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can say with certainty that as of 6 years ago, 4473 checks were not retained in any way by the ATF or the federal government. There are local copies of the paperwork retained the FFL in which the sale took place, and those are required to be kept for a period of time and, should the FFL ever close shop, those records are shipped to the ATF, possibly revealing record data to them, but at least at the point of the NI…

> I can say with certainty that as of 6 years ago, 4473 checks were not retained in any way by the ATF or the federal government. To clarify, are you saying that no government entity retains either the 4473 or the NICS check records, or are you only speaking about the 4473 itself?

4473 and e-4473 (which both effectively follow the same process).

That said, the NICS system is managed and run by the FBI, so I can't speak authoritatively there. In dealing with them regarding it though, the impression I got from their tech team was that it wasn't storing anything past receipt acknowledgement, and even where it stored data, the implication was that it only stored the metadata there as well, uniquely identified by the NICS transaction ID.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#162

Post by ensignavenger »

mikeash wrote: post #157
ensignavenger wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only have to register your car if you plan to drive in on public roads. Most gun registration proposals would require registration whether or not you were using the gun on public lands. You already have to have a hunting permit to hunt on public lands (or to take publicly owned wildlife on private land) in most states. The purpose behind gun registration is very different. If you don't think gun registries would…

I've seen that "public roads" thing mentioned a lot. In practice, I don't see how it matters: to a very good approximation, nobody buys a car not to drive it on public roads.

Yes, that is very much true. That is why I outlined other examples to illustrate the differences- intent and effect of the two systems are very different.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#163

Post by maratd »

simonh wrote: post #146
maratd wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communist much?

I can't see how. Having visited several communist counties, and being married to someone that grew up in one, the previous comment doesn't resemble any of them in the slightest.

To each according to his need, from each according to his ability. That's communism and that's what the parent was talking about.

Now, the countries you visited are probably quite a bit off from the above even though they call themselves communist, but the above most certain is communism. Speaking of visiting, I lived in one for a very long time, does that make me more qualified than you to speak on the subject?

If you're going to stand for something, at the very least identify it properly.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#164

Post by kerrmudgeon »

fywacro wrote: post #86
xradionut wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But I suspect the NSA doesn't know how many guns you own. That alone is somehow seen as a violation of your rights" Have you purchased a firearm in the US from a licensed dealer recently? There's paper/digital record of most firearm purchase in most cases, with a few exceptions. There's a cursory background check ran too. (In the case of most US citizens the government doesn't care about small arms. Most are used fo…

I'm not so sure that most US firearm purchases are recorded. In many US states, direct private gun sales are perfectly legal. For instance, a Pennsylvania resident can directly sell (most) guns to another PA resident. They don't need to run background checks, keep records, or submit forms to the government. As long as the buyer doesn't know that the seller is a prohibited person (convicted/indicted felon, etc), it's…

I just wanted to clarify: private sales are person-to-person and cannot include any sort of shipment.

Online sales such as all the sites you listed are required by Federal law to only ship to a licensed Federal Firearms License holder who in turn may only transfer to customers after a NICS check. So, online sales are as cumbersome as in-store purchases.

Anything with a NICS check or credit card purchase is potentially trackable.

Also, with a gun registry [proposed in various places], sufficiently smart data mining, and fast processing, it may be possible to detect an ammunition purchase [via credit card] in a caliber in which the buyer supposedly doesn't have a registered firearm.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#165

Post by guyal »

Other than refusing to consent to letting the NSA wiretap your customers, what 'innocent' actions can be viewed as felonies? I didn't see any specific examples which applied to everyday life in the article.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#166

Post by Houshalter »

njharman wrote: post #113
pekk wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are working at will for pay, you are not being enslaved. Get a grip.

Unless basic human needs are free (health, housing, food & water), no one is working "at will".

Well then your definition of slavery includes pretty much every human being throughout history. Freedom doesn't mean getting stuff for free.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#167

Post by skaevola »

flyinRyan wrote: post #118
skaevola wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That post has no relevance. Ideas are what matter, not people.

So stop quoting Rand. Quote the ideas in their original and better articulated form.

That's not the way it works. I'll quote whoever I want, whenever I find their articulation of ideas interesting. It's intellectually bankrupt to ignore a person's ideas just because you don't like them.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#168

Post by einhverfr »

Spooky23 wrote: post #119
Kiro wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I want to know what felonies I commit.

The somewhat dramatic "three felonies a day" mostly boil down to some variant of "Honest Services Fraud". Commonly cited examples include calling in sick without being sick It's also very easy to trivially commit wire fraud.

Indeed, if you check facebook when you claim to be sick and you are not sick, you are billing your employer, so calling in sick is wire fraud and checking facebook (if their ToS bans use for unlawful purposes) is unauthroized access to a protected computer system in furtherance of another crime (and therefore a felony).

Two felonies there.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#169

Post by shpxnvz »

bmelton wrote: post #161
shpxnvz wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can say with certainty that as of 6 years ago, 4473 checks were not retained in any way by the ATF or the federal government. To clarify, are you saying that no government entity retains either the 4473 or the NICS check records, or are you only speaking about the 4473 itself?

4473 and e-4473 (which both effectively follow the same process). That said, the NICS system is managed and run by the FBI, so I can't speak authoritatively there. In dealing with them regarding it though, the impression I got from their tech team was that it wasn't storing anything past receipt acknowledgement, and even where it stored data, the implication was that it only stored the metadata there as well, uniquel…

I ask because several FFLs have reported having their local ATF agent bring printouts of their NICS check histories to check against the bound book.

If true, clearly someone would have to be holding NICS records and the ATF would have to have access to them.

Re: You commit three felonies a day

#170

Post by bmelton »

shpxnvz wrote: post #169
bmelton wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4473 and e-4473 (which both effectively follow the same process). That said, the NICS system is managed and run by the FBI, so I can't speak authoritatively there. In dealing with them regarding it though, the impression I got from their tech team was that it wasn't storing anything past receipt acknowledgement, and even where it stored data, the implication was that it only stored the metadata there as well, uniquel…

I ask because several FFLs have reported having their local ATF agent bring printouts of their NICS check histories to check against the bound book. If true, clearly someone would have to be holding NICS records and the ATF would have to have access to them.

So, it's possible for them to hold the NICS check without holding the person data. NICS is identified by a transaction ID and, at least as I understood it (NICS is an FBI system, so we had limited insight from the ATF, and as a contractor, I had possibly less insight than an ATF agent proper), the PII (Personally Identifiable Information) is purged from the NICS check upon completion of the check.

There might be, and probably is (at least) a record of the transactions that were processed and the result of the transaction. Also, as I understand it, if the check fails (hence, no gun is disbursed), then the PII may be held longer to aid potential investigations.

From the ATF's perspective though, PII definitely isn't kept, or at least wasn't as of 6 years ago. I honestly don't remember the specs on failed checks. I don't think that it did, but that isn't to say that if they are prepping for an investigation of an FFL that they couldn't requery the FBI for more thorough NICS records than what they hold in their own systems.

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