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Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

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Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#91

Post by jsolson »

floitsch wrote: post #75
corresation wrote: post #22

What are the legal ramifications if employees at Google also work at the behest of the NSA/FBI/CIA (unbeknownst to Google)? It is one thing to compel the organization to reveal information, but what are the legal questions around essentially spies within the various corporations? This very blog post mentions that Google hires some of the best security engineers in the world. I'm sure having "prior" employment at the…

Disclaimer: I work at Google. I'm working on the client-side (Chrome) and my knowledge in the server area is therefore limited, but from my understanding this would be really hard. 1. Googlers have access to almost all source code. It would be difficult to hide code that just sends data to an outside entity. 2. Google continually monitors its (internal) bandwidth. This is done to optimize traffic, and detect intruder…

> 3. Google's infrastructure changes. You can't just install a gateway to the NSA and expect it to continue working for a long time. It's not as if user-data was stored in simple text-files.

I think this was the biggest bullshit signal for me (also a Googler, although a recent addition). The high rate of change of Google's infrastructure is astounding when you consider the scale it operates at. The notion of trying to maintain a functional API in secret of the scope they're talking about is laughable without a pretty sizable team.

Impossible? No, probably not, but really ridiculously unlikely.

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#92

Post by mrschwabe »

Who cares people? The gig is up on Google. They are in PRISM. Instead of upvoting every piece of Google PR we should be ignoring their rhetoric and distancing ourselves from this company; and the other 9 implicated in PRISM.

Secret partnerships with government agencies is detrimental to free market capitalism and goes against the true spirit of entrepreneurship.

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#93

Post by jeremyjh »

tptacek wrote: post #13

In expressing his view that Google is being harmed by USG's lack of transparency (combined with the godawful operational security of the contractor-run intelligence agencies), is Google's chief counsel here starting to build the standing to sue the government? If this whole debacle sets up an epic confrontation between Google and the DoJ, I may have to reevaluate how irritated I am at how "Prism" has been reported. M…

This is wishful thinking.

I have two ideas that are just as well supported by the complete lack of facts that we all have.

First, that Google is setting us up to believe a half-truth related to FISA letter counts. There are such numbers, we will get them, and they will not include all surveillance conducted with Google's data but anyone who says that will be back to being a crank.

Second, that Google perceives an existential threat to their company along two related but separate axis. The first is that their customers will leave, but that is less likely than the second. The second is that their best employees will leave. Googlers will not want to consider themselves as clerks in the Ministry of Truth. If they and their peers began to think about it in that way, then they will leave and the business will eventually die. If their employees have a credible excuse to think of their employer as a noble crusader, then this threat is significantly mitigated.

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#94

Post by tptacek »

jeremyjh wrote: post #93
tptacek wrote: post #13

In expressing his view that Google is being harmed by USG's lack of transparency (combined with the godawful operational security of the contractor-run intelligence agencies), is Google's chief counsel here starting to build the standing to sue the government? If this whole debacle sets up an epic confrontation between Google and the DoJ, I may have to reevaluate how irritated I am at how "Prism" has been reported. M…

This is wishful thinking. I have two ideas that are just as well supported by the complete lack of facts that we all have. First, that Google is setting us up to believe a half-truth related to FISA letter counts. There are such numbers, we will get them, and they will not include all surveillance conducted with Google's data but anyone who says that will be back to being a crank. Second, that Google perceives an exi…

How is that claim falsifiable?

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#95

Post by cinquemb »

EthanHeilman wrote: post #79
slg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that this is a problem limited to US companies. With the global nature of the tech industry, I think a product's or service's country of origin has seen a reduced importance over the years. I don't think the average consumer knows that Waze is based in Israel. I don't foresee anyone considering the NSA and choosing a Canadian designed Blackberry phone over a US designed Apple one. Instead I think this will…

I think it will cause a deinternationalization of the technology industry since each government will want it's citizens to use local tech (if you think governments can't force this look at S. Korea and IE). US companies are some of the most international, so this will hurt US companies the most and it will reduce the margins of all the big players across the board (that is, short GOOG).

Maybe corporations could go off the coast of nation states[0]… not that they will beyond the influence of them, but states may have no legal authority over them under those circumstances so they may have more freedom to be more transparent to the public because of their interests to their bottom lines.

[0]: http://www.seasteading.org/about/

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#96

Post by freyr »

EthanHeilman wrote: post #79
slg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that this is a problem limited to US companies. With the global nature of the tech industry, I think a product's or service's country of origin has seen a reduced importance over the years. I don't think the average consumer knows that Waze is based in Israel. I don't foresee anyone considering the NSA and choosing a Canadian designed Blackberry phone over a US designed Apple one. Instead I think this will…

I think it will cause a deinternationalization of the technology industry since each government will want it's citizens to use local tech (if you think governments can't force this look at S. Korea and IE). US companies are some of the most international, so this will hurt US companies the most and it will reduce the margins of all the big players across the board (that is, short GOOG).

Without government intervention, I don't think this news will disrupt the habits of typical consumers. They'll continue using whatever is easy or the most popular.

Corporations that have a vested interest in providing security (or the illusion thereof) may reconsider cloud-hosted solutions. But that's probably a relatively small market.

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#97

Post by anoncowardftw »

So I'm a bit confused. Google has been happily complying with NSA without a care or concern in the world. Now some news leaks that they have been.. Happily complying with NSA without a care or concern in the world.

So they release an "open" letter trying to redirect the masses attention, and I'm not a little shocked it's working. People are actually praising Google? WTH? If Google really cared this letter is like 5 years too late doncha think? Google cares about one thing! That they got caught not giving a crap about the privacy/rights of their customers.

News Flash, they still don't give a crap. But hey, if losing gmail, google+, picasa, blogspot, drive etc. would just cause your world to fall apart, then keep using it and just be honest that you don't give a crap about your privacy or rights any more than Google does.

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#98

Post by dragonwriter »

jshen wrote: post #63
richtr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is your interpretation of the law... - NSA 2013

And the NSA is not the one that ultimately decides the interpretation of the law.

No, but they work for the guy that can-- 1. Veto prosecution efforts, and 2. Provide literal get out of jail free cards.

So, there's a pretty good chance that unless its a rogue NSA operation, they are pretty well covered on the whole threat of criminal prosecution front.

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#99

Post by tptacek »

nitrogen wrote: post #80
tptacek wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual filings before FISA are secret; they're signals intelligence cases. The laws the FISA court uses to authorize surveillance are not secret.

But isn't the interpretation of those laws as used by the courts and the DoJ a secret?

In that ever court case involves a judge interpreting the law, and none of the FISA cases will ever be public because they involve confidential targets, informants, sources, and methods of intelligence gathering, yes.

But the prevailing view seems to be that the whole FISA program is a system of secret laws, which is not in fact the truth.

Re: Asking the U.S. to allow Google to publish more national security request data

#100

Post by jeremyjh »

tptacek wrote: post #94
jeremyjh wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wishful thinking. I have two ideas that are just as well supported by the complete lack of facts that we all have. First, that Google is setting us up to believe a half-truth related to FISA letter counts. There are such numbers, we will get them, and they will not include all surveillance conducted with Google's data but anyone who says that will be back to being a crank. Second, that Google perceives an exi…

How is that claim falsifiable?

It isn't a claim at all, its simply speculation. I think you raise an interesting point though, which is that there is no possible evidence, testimony or papers written by blue-ribbon commissions (coming in 2017!) that will ever "settle" these questions in some quarters.
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