Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#171

Post by microb » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 6:51 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #90

microb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm about to say is absolutely nuts, but it could be that this is something the NSA leaked intentionally and the media is running with it for reasons we are not aware of. Despite twitter and the like, the mainstream media is still largely in control of what occupies the "news" and therefore what the otherwise apathetic public is concerned about.

> What I'm about to say is absolutely nuts, but it could be that this is something the NSA leaked intentionally I had a similar thought this morning, not necessarily about the NSA leaking this on purpose, but about how they could turn this into their own advantage. You can already see that Obama has gone on record saying that "we cannot fight against terror without giving away some of our freedoms" (or something very…

We're definitely not immune to collapse. Nuclear weapons just make things a collapse more sticky. Society needs a scapegoat to channel it's inherent violence (ie the Communists of the 50s, the "Barbarians" of Europe as you mentioned & the Terrorists of today) It's not a coincidence. Check out professor Rene Girard[1] from of Stanford if you haven't heard of him. The people who run this show know exactly what they are doing.

[1]http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rene+girard+scap...

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#172

Post by eli_gottlieb » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 7:17 AM UTC

fexl wrote: post #163

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, despite all hopes, Americans persistently persist in not revolting against their government. I despair of the Revolution coming any time soon.

Revolution is one violent gang fighting another violent gang, producing a new boss that's same as the old boss. Instead, seriously consider ways of living and behaving which minimize your contact with and support for all gangs.

What gangs? Nobody I even know is involved with gangs or the mafia.

Oh, you're an anarchist, aren't you?

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#173

Post by dpatru » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 7:32 AM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #142

ericHosick wrote: post #2

This may seem a bit off topic, but I do agree that we can't go back. So, I'm asking here. We are building out a software development framework "from scratch" and would like to make security a core aspect of the framework. Where would be a good place to start looking at encryption solutions? For example, would PGP be a good option?

Since the story broke last week, I've been thinking about a PKI-based message program (think email, but not actually email) built on top of Freenet, to remove the need of any central server. I think I have a reasonable idea of how it would work, but I'm not convinced it would help anything. Tools already exist to securely send messages. Someone who truly cares about their security will learn how to use them. People w…

> Someone who truly cares about their security will learn how to use them.

Needs are relative. People have a lot of cares in this world and for most people, online anonymity and confidentiality don't rank very high. That's why convenient, cheap solutions are important. Solutions that require people too much won't be used. Think of digital cameras. Most people will use them if they're included free on a phone, but they're not willing to pay $3000 for "quality."

Think

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#174

Post by flyinRyan » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 7:36 AM UTC

kllrnohj wrote: post #137

flyinRyan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have a clue what it is. What you should realize, though is that a lot of people are up in arms about this. Do you think you're smarter than all of them? From this post alone, I see a resounding no.

Here: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/08/18850035-intellig... The people up in arms aren't thinking logically, they are thinking emotionally. That's a terrible way to make any sort of decision.

Oh, so one of the people involved in this immoral, illegal spying program says it's not that bad? Well never mind then! I guess it must all be ok. No oversight needed.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#175

Post by inthewind » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 7:50 AM UTC

Amadou wrote: post #157

Loughla wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's the general feeling over there? Mostly people fall into two categories: ignorant or apathetic. Either people watch too much national news, and don't really hear this story, or if they do know about it they don't believe it's that big of a deal. Here in the midwest, "I have nothing to hide" is a popular comment.

There are all kinds of intellectual arguments against the "I have nothing to hide" excuse, but the argument itself is emotional - "I am a good person, bad things do not happen to good people." We need examples, emotional heart-string tugging examples of good people who had something to hide and suffered because it was exposed. I don't have any off the top of my head, but perhaps someone has already realized this and…

Ithttp://americablog.com/2013/03/facebook-might-know-youre-gay...

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#176

Post by inthewind » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 8:14 AM UTC

Amadou wrote: post #157

Loughla wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's the general feeling over there? Mostly people fall into two categories: ignorant or apathetic. Either people watch too much national news, and don't really hear this story, or if they do know about it they don't believe it's that big of a deal. Here in the midwest, "I have nothing to hide" is a popular comment.

There are all kinds of intellectual arguments against the "I have nothing to hide" excuse, but the argument itself is emotional - "I am a good person, bad things do not happen to good people." We need examples, emotional heart-string tugging examples of good people who had something to hide and suffered because it was exposed. I don't have any off the top of my head, but perhaps someone has already realized this and…

One nice point raised in that article is the feeling of encroachment on personal space.

Going somewhat OT, sorry no concrete examples for you...

Like other's have said the thought that you are being watched is like being in a panopticon, or having God looking over your shoulder. Which might of course curb some people from doing wrong, but could stifle exploration and expression of our multiple personas on the web.

Some laws are easy to get on board with, others are not. You could kill your career with something like the exposure of drug taking.

There's the possibility of smear campaigns (if the data falls into the wrong hands). Did anyone hear about the news of the world police bribing scandal in the UK?

You might loose your job, if you are found to have certain political or organisational leanings.

You could find yourself the target of ethnic cleansing.

Those that have nothing to hide, probably feel right now that they are on the right side of the law. Perhaps you could identify 'criminals' by asking for a show of hands for those that 'have nothing to hide', and lock up the rest.

We all have a few skeletons in our closet, it might be nice to get these out there and seek repentence, but sadly some people are just not so tolerant, forgiving, or able to not pass judgment. And sometimes it's best to just bury these things.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#177

Post by phryk » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 9:15 AM UTC

cabalamat wrote: post #108

phryk wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Germany a lot of people have become disillusioned by the (german) Pirate Party. They seem to have degraded into a mix of ridiculous infighting and traditional political party stuff. I'd much rather see them to push for just one topic: Getting direct democracy. Right now they are just dispersing all the resources they have (in mind and matter) towards hundreds if not thousands of different topics and don't…

> At least in Germany a lot of people have become disillusioned by the (german) Pirate Party. In termss of the Hype Cycle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle ), they've passed the peak of inflated expectations and are now in the trough of dissillusionment. This state will not last forever. > They seem to have degraded into a mix of ridiculous infighting and traditional political party stuff. They grew too quick…

No, they need a full range of policies if they are to get people to vote for them. Otherwise, people will say "I agree with you on X, but other policies are more important to me, so I won't be voting for you."

It just seems like an insane amount of brain cycles. Having just one clear goal would make it much easier for anyone to understand - in it's entirety - what the PP is standing for and also streamline resources towards that goal which would probably make it much more efficient in reaching said goal.

As for a complete political programme, can't they just have a team that puts all the decisions that are decided upon in political institutions where pirates are involved into a liquid feedback system where everyone can vote on it? That way the PP could already act as a small direct democracy.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#178

Post by phryk » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 9:18 AM UTC

ionforce wrote: post #110

phryk wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Germany a lot of people have become disillusioned by the (german) Pirate Party. They seem to have degraded into a mix of ridiculous infighting and traditional political party stuff. I'd much rather see them to push for just one topic: Getting direct democracy. Right now they are just dispersing all the resources they have (in mind and matter) towards hundreds if not thousands of different topics and don't…

You don't want direct democracy. Otherwise the majority will rule over the minority.

Actually I want a cooperative anarchy with localized institutions that are publicly controlled and from which anybody can opt out in some way.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#179

Post by phryk » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 9:26 AM UTC

flyinRyan wrote: post #106

phryk wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that culture is a much more powerful agent of change than traditional political work could ever be. Politicians can act as scribes and put down into legislation a part of the cultural ethos, but they don't do much in the way of inspiring that ethos in the first place. Practice what you preach, call bullshit by its' name.

I don't know about you, but I remember a time where calling your representative could affect change. In the last ~10 years politicians have shown that they no longer care. Studies in Canada and various places have shown that simply advertising changes enough people's behavior to be effective. So now politicians feel ok simply ignoring their constituent so long as they get enough advertising money to secure a win. Cul…

But the system is not the government. It is an emergent system created by the interaction of people. You don't have to accept the government as the primary authority that determines how you live your life. If enough people do that the culture changes and so will the "system".

I mean look at how inefficient governments are… Have you ever seen one make a solid economic plus? Those archaic structures are pretty much already crumbling.

I hope and think that the kind of shit these systems are doing right now are just the death throes of an obsolete institution desperately trying not to fade into irrelevance.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#180

Post by phryk » Tue, Jun 11, 2013, 9:35 AM UTC

heynk wrote: post #138

phryk wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, you mean a bit like this? "He found he was unable to print out a boarding pass […] when he approached ticket agents, they were blocked from producing a boarding pass for him without first calling a Secure Flight number at the Department of Homeland Security. […] ticket agents told him he was on a federal watchlist." http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/hacker-border-searc... If it's not automated now it will…

Or a British individual who was detained and questioned for tweeting "Free this week, for quick gossip/prep before I go and destroy America?" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2093796/Emily-Buntin...

Or the US teen who has been incarcerated for posting stupid rap lyrics on facebook:

http://cms.fightforthefuture.org/teenager/

Don't mind the petition though, last I heard was that his family was getting him out of jail with him not being indicted for anything. The authorities seemed to get a good amount of public pressure.