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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

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Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#201

Post by betterunix »

sneak wrote: post #189
md224 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a middle ground where information private to the government is allowed but there is no NSA or CIA, or at least no intelligence operations beyond keeping an eye on the military movements of other countries? Honest question: What danger would that put us in? My instinct says a moderate amount, but I guess none of us know for sure, which makes it a little scary to imagine.

Honest follow-up question: How much danger would it need to put us in for you to think it's a bad idea? What if what they're not telling us is that FISA collection orders and analysis has kept people from nuking Manhattan a half-dozen times?

So because there might be bad people, somewhere, planning to do bad things, we should just let the government run wild and do whatever it wants? What if the government claimed that they needed to put cameras in everyone's livingroom, because by doing so they could stop a major terrorist attack?

The problem with your argument is that it basically allows the government to do anything it wants, and then claim that there is secret information that proves that what they are doing is necessary to save lives.

In my view, there is a need for government secrets. Diplomatic cables need to be secret. The names and locations of informants and spies need to be kept secret (I will not deny the need for such agents). During times of war, the locations and planned movements of troops must be kept secret. On the other hand, the existence of diplomats, the existence of spies, and the existence of the military absolutely should not be kept secret.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#202

Post by m52go »

It's very simple, really. I'm sure most of you have heard this before and know who said it:

Truth is treason in the empire of lies.

It just so happens that the people are hidden in bunkers of truth while their government is in denial inside the empire of lies.

It's time to set the record straight.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#203

Post by einhverfr »

anaptdemise wrote: post #200
aheilbut wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

On the topic of history... "After the fall of the Roman Republic, the constitutional balance of power shifted from the Roman Senate to the Roman Emperor. Though retaining its legal position as under the Republic, in practice, however the actual authority of the Imperial Senate was negligible, as the Emperor held the true power in the state. As such, membership in the Senate became sought after by individuals seeking…

Be slightly careful with Wikipedia about Rome. Such sweeping generalizations covering hundreds of years can't be always accurate. In fact the Senate's power waxed and waned depending on the politics of the empire. Under Claudius, the Senate was comparatively powerful if largely to convince everyone that the days of Caligula were over.

Understanding the dynamic nature of governments, especially ones as expansive as the US government, is necessary I think to appreciate how little democracy we actually have in the United States as it now stands. If we want to pin things to the definitions historians use to differentiate the Roman Republic from the Roman Empire, I think we passed that point with FDR to be honest.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#204

Post by einhverfr »

michaelwww wrote: post #172
ekianjo wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is flawed. You can destroy each other, so what? Everybody loses. We know that some countries have their weapons ready to go at the will of a single person or very few. What if that leader becomes crazy or incapable of reasoning? Your subs you't protect you in that scenario. There are so many other ways you can prevent such attacks. Diplomacy, commerce, keeping good relations, etc. The threat of an axe o…

That's why it was called M.A.D. - Mutual Assured Destruction - with dark humor. Nobody chose it, the world just evolved that way until it became codified.

In his book, "Star Wars," Lt. Bowman makes the case that the Strategic Defence Initiative (and similar missile defence systems) are bad ideas specifically because they disrupt MAD. His argument is that as long as we KNOW we are not being under attack, then we can all sleep at night. There is a point to this.

MAD wasn't just about deterrence, but also about ensuring mutual access to early warning information. The combination of the two is actually not a bad thing. "I know you can destroy me if I attack you, and I know you can see me if I start to do so" is not a bad set of factors. Unfortunately things like anti-satellite missiles and weapons in space really endanger that because if a small piece of space junk collides with a satellite over the other guy's territory, you may not know for sure that this is not the prelude to an attack.

So the actual MAD strategies as they developed through the Ford years were actually quite sophisticated and stabilizing. But what happens when your threat is a nuclear weapon in a twenty-foot container instead of an ICBM (because some country like North Korea knows we can have 747's with lasers shoot down launching missiles if we launch a first strike)?

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#205

Post by aheilbut »

fexl wrote: post #193
aheilbut wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

"All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are." That's the official story. In reality, those things are used to enslave people and keep them happy on the modern plantation, looking to the master to keep them safe. Freedom is the absence of coercion, and those things have utterly failed…

No, really, that's not just the official story. The reality is that tens of millions of people were killed in wars and genocides in just the 20th century. The most basic role of government is to protect its own citizens against that, and it is not an abstract threat. And despite their many flaws, and the many wrong things that they have done, the US and its allies remain the most open, free societies and a positive, stabilizing force in the world.

It's entirely legitimate to question whether the NSA has been going too far -- there's been debate about it for years. However, there is zero evidence that any of the data being collected had even been used in any way that impacted or threatened the freedom of people in the US -- it's all possibilities and abstract paranoia. It's difficult to have a serious debate when people put on tin-foil hats, plug their ears, and refuse to even acknowledge the broader realities. It's not all just a conspiracy to monitor Facebook and take away our bitcoins. All of these issues demand a dynamic balancing of risks and benefits, and of the rights of individuals against society. Any extreme philosophical positions are dangerous.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#206

Post by anaptdemise »

einhverfr wrote: post #203
anaptdemise wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the topic of history... "After the fall of the Roman Republic, the constitutional balance of power shifted from the Roman Senate to the Roman Emperor. Though retaining its legal position as under the Republic, in practice, however the actual authority of the Imperial Senate was negligible, as the Emperor held the true power in the state. As such, membership in the Senate became sought after by individuals seeking…

Be slightly careful with Wikipedia about Rome. Such sweeping generalizations covering hundreds of years can't be always accurate. In fact the Senate's power waxed and waned depending on the politics of the empire. Under Claudius, the Senate was comparatively powerful if largely to convince everyone that the days of Caligula were over. Understanding the dynamic nature of governments, especially ones as expansive as th…

Great input. I couldn't find a better source for the Roman Senate, but my quote was more to satire the current 24/hour news cycle driven politician.

FDR def.; probably Wilson

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#207

Post by einhverfr »

fixxer wrote: post #141
jleader wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly do we still need nuclear subs? I'm not trying to be a troll, or funny. What threat is currently best dealt with by deploying ICBMs in nuclear subs? And why is the money better spent on that than on any other alternative use?

MAD works.

But only when combining deterrence with early warning and an agreement not to develop weapons to target early warning systems. Otherwise it is a recipe for "oops, I guess we weren't really being attacked. Sorry for the nuclear war."

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#208

Post by einhverfr »

anaptdemise wrote: post #206
einhverfr wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be slightly careful with Wikipedia about Rome. Such sweeping generalizations covering hundreds of years can't be always accurate. In fact the Senate's power waxed and waned depending on the politics of the empire. Under Claudius, the Senate was comparatively powerful if largely to convince everyone that the days of Caligula were over. Understanding the dynamic nature of governments, especially ones as expansive as th…

Great input. I couldn't find a better source for the Roman Senate, but my quote was more to satire the current 24/hour news cycle driven politician. FDR def.; probably Wilson

Maybe even Lincoln.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#209

Post by einhverfr »

aheilbut wrote: post #205
fexl wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are." That's the official story. In reality, those things are used to enslave people and keep them happy on the modern plantation, looking to the master to keep them safe. Freedom is the absence of coercion, and those things have utterly failed…

No, really, that's not just the official story. The reality is that tens of millions of people were killed in wars and genocides in just the 20th century. The most basic role of government is to protect its own citizens against that , and it is not an abstract threat. And despite their many flaws, and the many wrong things that they have done, the US and its allies remain the most open, free societies and a positive,…

How many of those genocides were carried on by a government against some segment of its population? How justified is it to look at the tens of millions who have been killed by their governments and conclude that if the governments are to protect us from war and genocide, "with friends like these, who needs enemies?"

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#210

Post by anigbrowl »

adrianbg wrote: post #199
aheilbut wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

Are you sure you've looked back at history? People's freedoms are typically limited by elites in their own country, not by foreign enemies.

the two are not mutually exclusive. Consider the a the number of former colonial powers is small compared to the number of former colonies.
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