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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

blog.sfgate.com

191–200 of 359 posts

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#191
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are an absurd number of things that it makes sense for the government to keep from the public and not divesting that information but keeping the people who have that information accountable is what elections are for. You want to know what officers are working under cover in the police force? Who are informants on terrorist organizations working against the state? The home phone numbers and addresses of all publ…

> You want to know what officers are working under cover in the police force? I don't think that there need to be undercover police officers. > Who are informants on terrorist organizations working against the state? I don't think there need to be informants on terrorist organizations. > The home phone numbers and addresses of all public employees? Their emergency contact numbers? Medical histories relevant to their…

I generally agree with you, but to be Devil's Advocate for a moment, what do you think about secret R&D for purposes of defense?

Even some of the most staunch anarcho-capitalists I know believe in centralized national defense as one of the very few legitimate functions of the state.

Would not having planes invisible to radar (B-2), or those that could fly faster than missiles (SR-71) be nice secrets to keep from everyone who's thinking about invading you?

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#192
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen the spin the mainstream media is putting on this issue? It's sickening. If the issue is covered (earlier, CNN felt it necessary to talk about oversized rubber-duckies and some phenomenon called 'crazy ants' instead), coverage NEVER questions the existence of the surveillance itself. Instead, the WAY the government handles the surveillance is questioned (contracting it out, etc). So, yes, in a perfect wo…

>coverage NEVER questions the existence of the surveillance itself. Instead, the WAY the government handles the surveillance is questioned (contracting it out, etc). So true. I saw a headline today that read "Booz Allen contracts in jeapoardy after NSA leak?" and I thought really? that's what's what we should be asking for? Well at least in my family the dialogue has been: wow, what a young, smart, brave guy.

CNN did a whole segment tonight on Snowden titled "Patriot or Traitor?"

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#193
post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

"All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are."

That's the official story. In reality, those things are used to enslave people and keep them happy on the modern plantation, looking to the master to keep them safe. Freedom is the absence of coercion, and those things have utterly failed to safeguard that, and indeed have actively warred against it.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#196
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

"All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are." That's the official story. In reality, those things are used to enslave people and keep them happy on the modern plantation, looking to the master to keep them safe. Freedom is the absence of coercion, and those things have utterly failed…

So you thing all the guns in the US revolutionary war were superfluous?

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#198
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and we could not catch this traitor with those 80 billions

Hence the reason I tell you all that neither the NSA nor the U.S. government is actually omnipotent or all-powerful. :P

I do agree with that statement, but it doesn't mean they can do a whole lot of damage. From Iraq to Aaron Schwartz, when the US government turns it's big sloppy attention at you, watch out.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#199
post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

Are you sure you've looked back at history? People's freedoms are typically limited by elites in their own country, not by foreign enemies.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#200
post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

On the topic of history...

"After the fall of the Roman Republic, the constitutional balance of power shifted from the Roman Senate to the Roman Emperor. Though retaining its legal position as under the Republic, in practice, however the actual authority of the Imperial Senate was negligible, as the Emperor held the true power in the state. As such, membership in the Senate became sought after by individuals seeking prestige and social standing, rather than actual authority."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_senate#Senate_of_the_Rom...]

Imagine for a moment, further expansion of executive autonomy and power. Then review recent elections with the definition of populism in mind. There are stark similarities.

"When Hitler was appointed in January 1933, Germany was a democracy. Germany had fair elections; nobody had their right to vote abused; there were numerous political parties you could vote for etc. To pass a law, the Reichstag had to agree to it after a bill went through the normal processes of discussion, arguments etc. Within the Reichstag of January 1933, over 50% of those who held seats were against the Nazi Party. Therefore it would have been very unlikely for Hitler to have got passed into law what he wanted. Many saw Hitler as a fall-guy politician who would have to shoulder to blame if things got worse under his leadership.

Hitler had promised a general election for March 1933. This would have been, in his mind, the perfect opportunity for him to show all politicians who opposed him where the true loyalties lay in the German people. In fact, 1932 had shown Hitler that there was a possibility that support for the Nazis had peaked as their showing in the November 1932 election had shown. Anything other than a huge endorsement of Hitler and the Nazi Party would have been a disaster and a gamble which it is possible that Hitler did not want to take.

One week before the election was due to take place, the Reichstag building burned down. Hitler immediately declared that it was the signal for a communist takeover of the nation. Hitler knew that if he was to convince President Hindenburg to give him emergency powers - as stated in the Weimar Constitution - he had to play on the old president's fear of communism. What better than to convince him that the communists were about to take over the nation by force?"

[http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Nazi_Germany_dictatorsh...]

Even in a well formed government, there are possible scenarios that play out with catastrophic results. As politics become more polarized and government exerts more authority, it is more likely that individual opportunists can raise to dominant positions and wreak havoc on policy and settle vendettas against political opponents.

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