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Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

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Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#51

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #11
marknutter wrote: post #8

That's because a majority of Americans don't believe they have anything to hide, or that the stuff they do want to hide is probably so mundane to the average government official that they assume they wouldn't care. I'm guessing the way the survey question is posed has a lot to do with the outcome. Take out the word "terrorism" and I'm sure support would drop. Add the phrase "personal information" and I'm sure it woul…

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

[deleted]

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#52

Post by sliverstorm »

tptacek wrote: post #22
craigyk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. You'll get me too pull out my pitchfork if there is ever evidence this is being used for anything other than national security, I haven't seen that. IMO, the first shady use of this would most likely be the war on drugs, if we see that happen than I'll start getting worried.

Hey: my pitchfork is already within arm's reach. My "problem" over the last couple days is shoddy reporting and rush to judgement, especially with things like "OMG Palantir is even named after the all-seeing eye in Lord of the Rings, they must be in on it". It's not OK if NSA is hoovering all communications in the US and sifting for national security issues, and that does appear to be what happened with Verizon/ATT/S…

My "problem" over the last couple days is shoddy reporting and rush to judgement

Right there with you. I've started digging in my heels at breaking stories simply for the speed at which people start jumping to conclusions.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#53

Post by benmmurphy »

tstactplsignore wrote: post #4

The even crazier story is this: In 2006, 61% of Democrats thought it was unacceptable, and in 2013, 34% of Democrats think it is unacceptable. I vote as Democrat as the next guy, but that's some crazy double-think going on there.

Privacy might not be a big issue for many people and so they use the issue to signal support for politicians that are similar on issues that are important to them.

EDIT:

Or with even less mental effort they saw a question about privacy and didn't have an answer at hand so just substituted it with the question: do you like the President?

It's not double think if they never had an opinion on privacy :)

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#54

Post by sliverstorm »

jmadsen wrote: post #29
GHFigs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the polite word for elitist?

"Realist speaking from experience"

Maybe if the poster had said we are fed a diet of bullshit; we don't stop to think enough; we are ignorant. Instead, it is always they, they, they. Never the poster- no, the poster is much smarter than they, much too smart to fall for any of that.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#55

Post by NikaJessenia »

GHFigs wrote: post #47
jmadsen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Realist speaking from experience"

"Poor people are stupid" isn't an experience, it's a prejudice.

I'm with you on that.

But, for once, this guy wasn't insulting poor people. He was insulting average people. The average person has free time but finds it very very hard to use it for something socially beneficial. This is partially their fault but certainly not wholly their fault.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#56

Post by baddox »

tptacek wrote: post #12
baddox wrote: post #10

And I have no problem with them opting in to have their lives and data tracked. The real problem is that everyone is tracked, including those in the minority who do not want their lives and data tracked. But such is democracy.

I don't understand the logic behind this comment. Surveillance against criminals doesn't work if the criminals have to opt-in to the surveillance.

I don't like certain things happening to me (like my own activity being tracked), and it doesn't matter to me that the majority of the country or society is okay with those things happening to me. I was pointing out that there's a difference between certain people being okay with their own activity being tracked and the idea that it's okay to track everyone simply because the majority is okay with that.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#57

Post by baddox »

tptacek wrote: post #11
marknutter wrote: post #8

That's because a majority of Americans don't believe they have anything to hide, or that the stuff they do want to hide is probably so mundane to the average government official that they assume they wouldn't care. I'm guessing the way the survey question is posed has a lot to do with the outcome. Take out the word "terrorism" and I'm sure support would drop. Add the phrase "personal information" and I'm sure it woul…

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

I have no data to back this up, but I suspect you are wrong. I believe that the majority of American adults (let's say age 18 and above) are guilty of many crimes and that the NSA is very capable of obtaining evidence to convict them. Some of these crimes people are well aware of, like drug use, speeding, or the obvious copyright infringement, but some aren't, like tax crime or breaking safety regulations.

As the quote goes, in a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. And when the government already has all the evidence it needs to convict everyone, then anything can essentially be made illegal by selective prosecution of unrelated crimes. Have you been protesting against the government's foreign policy? Suddenly you're in jail for the mistake you made on your taxes 5 years ago. Have you been active in an alternative currency like Bitcoin? Surprise, you're in jail for that movie torrent you seeded a few months ago.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#58

Post by rdl »

tptacek wrote: post #43
Alex3917 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA." I'm not so sure about that. Roughly 90% of Americans use illegal drugs at some point in their lives[1], and supposedly the average American commits 3 felonies per day.[2] [1] http://www.monitoringthefuture.org/pubs/monographs/vol2_2009... [2] http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-…

Most Americans do not believe NSA gives a shit whether they've smoked up before. I don't believe that either.

I would be somewhat concerned that NSA records could be used in employment verification (with NSA, or in government, or in general) in the future. Maybe "smoked pot" would not be a disqualifier, but what if a 22yo NSA candidate did coke at a party or something.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#59

Post by rdl »

rayiner wrote: post #37
craigyk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. You'll get me too pull out my pitchfork if there is ever evidence this is being used for anything other than national security, I haven't seen that. IMO, the first shady use of this would most likely be the war on drugs, if we see that happen than I'll start getting worried.

If you're really interested in civil liberties, the battle ground is the drug war. Everything becomes less scary once sending people to prison for drug use and possession is taken off the table.

Drug war far and away #1. Gambling and tax evasion might be #2.

Child porn is probably morally abhorrent enough (and genuinely rare; if >1% of people out there wanted to fuck 4 year olds, I'd probably try to nuke the planet from orbit) to not be an issue.

Maybe terrorism, if "terrorism" is badly interpreted enough to mean any contacts with terrorists, or advocacy of extreme political viewpoints.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#60

Post by marknutter »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #34
tptacek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

How many different refutations of "I have nothing to hide" have to be posted before it sinks in what a terrible stance that is? Or are you simply explaining the average person's inner response?

The latter. I agree it's a terrible stance.
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