Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

linkedin.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 291 posts

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#271

Post by radd9er »

einhverfr wrote: post #176
reeses wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the primary reason we (in the USA) are focusing so much on it is that these are the people appointed, promoted, funded, etc., by people we elected. Some people think that has meaning while many are cynical enough to think that they're all the same under the various masks. This is a revelation for most people, especially younger people, and they're dealing with the immediate, personal, consequences. As with…

But it is also that it is far easier for the police who have lots of surveillance to jail their own citizens than to swoop in and jail foreigners. The risk of abuses are there in both cases but they are orders of magnitude more when the police doing the arresting are from the same country as the ones doing the surveillance.

The risk for foreigners is the same when you consider the US gov sharing intelligence with other governments.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#273

Post by DannyBee »

kevinskii wrote: post #270
bradleyjg wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez - 494 U.S. 259 (1990) at 264-266 From the headnote: "The Fourth Amendment phrase "the people" seems to be a term of art used in select parts of the Constitution, and contrasts with the words "person" and "accused" used in Articles of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments regulating criminal procedures. This suggests that "the people" refers to a class of persons who are part of a national c…

Thanks for this. The OP suggested that non-citizens inside the US aren't afforded the same Constitutional protections as citizens. I believe this is incorrect. From the Wikipedia article about the case you cited [1]: "...Fourth Amendment protections do not apply to searches and seizures by United States agents of property owned by a nonresident alien in a foreign country. [emphasis mine]" [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/…

It is not incorrect. Heck, it's even been tested on the bar exam as part of the MBE, using the canadian fishing example I gave, which is a real MBE question based on a real case (I am a bit too lazy to look it up).

This is how the case has been interpreted by every court to follow it. See US v. Guitterez, 983 F.Supp. 905 for a fourth amendment example from the 9th circuit.

Here is another from the fifth circuit: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. ARMANDO PORTILLO-MUNOZ (i don't have cite handy)

"Portillo relies on Verdugo-Urquidez and argues that he has sufficient connections with the United States to be included in this definition of "the people," but neither this court nor the Supreme Court has held that the Fourth Amendment extends to a native and citizen of another nation who entered and remained in the United States illegally"

There are something like 2000+ cites to Verdugo, and and the general viewpoint of courts so far is as i said it is.

If you've got a court of appeals or SCOTUS cite to the contrary, where a court has held that they do apply, i'd love to see it.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#274

Post by MartinCron »

greendestiny wrote: post #85
jacques_chester wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I follow you. Americans are, theoretically, in a much stronger position vs NSA snooping. US law is meant to make it illegal for their spy agencies to look inwards and the US Constitution has its famous "search and seizure" clause which can, if you find the right judge, have some formidable teeth. As Australian citizens we have no such protections and we have no standing in US courts to get any restitutio…

In the same way that Americans are in a stronger position vs NSA snooping Australians are in a stronger position vs our own snooping.

Great, as an American, now I have to worry about Australians snooping on me, too.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#275

Post by bradleyjg »

kevinskii wrote: post #270
bradleyjg wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez - 494 U.S. 259 (1990) at 264-266 From the headnote: "The Fourth Amendment phrase "the people" seems to be a term of art used in select parts of the Constitution, and contrasts with the words "person" and "accused" used in Articles of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments regulating criminal procedures. This suggests that "the people" refers to a class of persons who are part of a national c…

Thanks for this. The OP suggested that non-citizens inside the US aren't afforded the same Constitutional protections as citizens. I believe this is incorrect. From the Wikipedia article about the case you cited [1]: "...Fourth Amendment protections do not apply to searches and seizures by United States agents of property owned by a nonresident alien in a foreign country. [emphasis mine]" [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/…

Right that's the holding, but the dicta suggests that some non-resident, non-citizens (i.e. temporary visitors) also are unprotected by the fourth amendment.

Various lower court decisions have fleshed out what constitutes "substantial connections".

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#276

Post by Silhouette »

flyinRyan wrote: post #193
Silhouette wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is intense debate about whether US citizens rights are being violated, but almost nobody questions whether there's any moral or ethical issue with completely unrestrained spying on everybody else. Almost nobody in the US, perhaps, but this whole mess isn't doing the US any favours at all with the international community, certainly not here in Europe. I'd say there's a fair chance the cavalier attitude towards t…

Let's hope so. The sooner the US gets marginalized and put on the shelf internationally, the sooner the world will become a safer place to live.

The sooner the US gets marginalized and put on the shelf internationally

FWIW, I certainly wouldn't go that far. However, I would prefer to see the administration of the US promoting more equal partnerships with other nations, rather than arrogantly presuming that they are somehow automatically qualified to lead the world in every field of human endeavour or that they should for some reason be exempt from normal standards of decent behaviour that they expect everyone else to follow.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#277

Post by lrem »

youngerdryas wrote: post #249
anvandare wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>allies No, we're vassals. The USA orders and we obey, whether it's supporting their military machine or handing over information, people, research, or economical advantages. It's a hegemony. >the misdeeds that seems to have returned from the dark ages You've been fed propaganda. The crimes have always been there. The USA has always supported tyranny, cruelty, and crimes against humanity if it served its best interes…

The poor helpless Europeans, laboring under the yoke of their North American oppressors. Exactly what method is being used to relieve you of your responsibility for your own country?

Um, well, the one-sideness of how everything is treated? An European boy charged with making a website aggravating an American corporation? Handcuff and to the plane (yep, that was stopped by a court, but still)! An American businessman charged with commanding the murder of an European chief of police? No, sorry, we won't hand you our citizen (search for the case of general Papała).

Even if this is not stated in any treaties, it's simply the practice.

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#278

Post by kevinskii »

DannyBee wrote: post #273
kevinskii wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this. The OP suggested that non-citizens inside the US aren't afforded the same Constitutional protections as citizens. I believe this is incorrect. From the Wikipedia article about the case you cited [1]: "...Fourth Amendment protections do not apply to searches and seizures by United States agents of property owned by a nonresident alien in a foreign country. [emphasis mine]" [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/…

It is not incorrect. Heck, it's even been tested on the bar exam as part of the MBE, using the canadian fishing example I gave, which is a real MBE question based on a real case (I am a bit too lazy to look it up). This is how the case has been interpreted by every court to follow it. See US v. Guitterez, 983 F.Supp. 905 for a fourth amendment example from the 9th circuit. Here is another from the fifth circuit: UNIT…

Thanks, I stand corrected. For anyone else interested, The Volokh Conspiracy blog has a detailed post on this very topic:

http://www.volokh.com/2011/06/13/the-constitutional-rights-o...

Re: Did Obama Just Destroy the U.S. Internet Industry?

#279

Post by Ziomislaw »

yen223 wrote: post #5
runn1ng wrote: post #2

No. Because most people don't care about privacy that much. See TSA scanners, foursquare, hell GMail scans your data everytime you read mails, Facebook doesn't even pretend there is a privacy. Damn, first thing any Apple computer do is taking your picture, getting your details and sending it all to Cupertino, before you even load the OS. Android tries to track all your phones under one account you have to add before…

So true. The real danger here is that it's now easier for foreign governments to justify censoring the web, to "protect us against US invasion of privacy" or something.

I certainly wouldn't mind if PSA[1] got cut off of the rest of internet.

[1]: Police State of America

Post reply on HN