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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#211

Post by Loughla »

mtgx wrote: post #41
euroclydon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You certainly do not speak for everyone outside the U.S. who has asked themselves the question: "Can I name a U.S. reporter who has disappeared or been murdered for producing material critical of the government?" or "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?"

Journalists are starting to be arrested, protesting is becoming increasingly harder, when the police starts arresting them as soon as they seem them, on BS grounds, and as others mentioned there's Gitmo and the torture, and the CIA kidnappings.

Citations?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#212

Post by eli_gottlieb »

powertower wrote: post #195
Ygg2 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet the "school shooting" incidence in the last 40 years can be counted on two hands. Wow, you are either not informed, not human (got like 100 fingers per hand?) or using some very narrow definition of school shooting (like children below 6 in Michigan). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the...

I've seen that list many times before and was even going to post it myself. I'm guessing you just skimmed over it and did not read the notes. So let me rephrase, how many school shooting can you count on your hands that you knew about? I'm guessing you won't make it pass your two hands. I'm not going to count crime infested ghetto area school shootings that involve a 70% dropout and incarceration rate, where one stud…

This is practically a lesson in the misuse of data. However you define the metric you're measuring, you should be comparing America to other countries. By any measure, America has more school shootings than most other countries.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#213

Post by webXL »

> Bradley Manning, a soldier who released classified documents to WikiLeaks in 2010, has had a very different experience. Manning was held for three years without trial, including 11 months when he was held in de facto solitary confinement. During some of this period, he was forced to sleep naked at night, allegedly as a way to prevent him from committing suicide. The United Nations’ special rapporteur on torture has condemned this as “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in violation of Article 16 of the convention against torture.”

I don't know all that much about the case, but why include suicide-prevention as an abuse? I'd probably want to kill myself in his situation, but I think it's humane to actually try to prevent someone from doing it.

And wasn't Manning's leak much more dangerous since it named foreign informants of hostile governments and terrorist organizations? Why lump that in the same category as Snowden letting Americans know how they are being spied on?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#214

Post by jvictor118 »

riggins wrote: post #194
jvictor118 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American living an America, I have to disagree with you. First of all, if you really didn't know the U.S. government and military had some creepy capabilities, you're not living on planet earth. Anyone with a brainstem and a basic interest in security and crypto can decipher this basic truth. Many even believe they can crack RSA and similar encryption schemes. Second of all, I don't begrudge any country their r…

to put my reply in context. I live in NYC. I used to be in the WTC on a weekly basis for business. I was in Rockefeller Center when anthrax was found in Rockefeller Center (that was actually kinda scary). I'm aware that 'PRISM' purportedly prevented a NYC subway bombing. This isn't to say I'm 'so brave'. It's just to give the context that I'm not removed from the situation. With that context, I'd much rather take my…

"My brother got killed in a subway bombing, but at least the government can't read my facebook messages about porn and cat pictures..."

REALLY? Could you say that with a straight face to a victim's family member?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#215

Post by bmelton »

saalweachter wrote: post #206
bmelton wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in Texas (and other states), there's Castle Doctrine, that would have allowed him the right to fire, wield and use his arms with lethal intent if in fact those FBI agents didn't have a warrant, which provides some protection that the agents would at least have to prove to a judge that there was reasonable cause to arrest him. Of course, they likely would have had a warrant, and if not, might possibly have gotte…

I do believe there are sets of laws and circumstances which logically or even ethically permit it, but I think in the end The Man wins. In this case, I suspect there are federal laws against shooting FBI agents, which would trump state law. Even if there weren't, well, suspects aren't always taken alive to be vindicated in court.

I don't believe there are any laws against shooting federal agents actually, though I could well be wrong, but in the absence of a verifiable warrant, there's no guarantee that they are federal agents. Even if they are federal agents, that doesn't give them any right to enter your home without your consent, absent a warrant.

I don't otherwise disagree with the synopsis you've put forth, I'm just saying that our right to bear doesn't prohibit us from ever firing in the event that there is clear justification. People storming your home is such a justification, no matter what uniforms they're wearing.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#216

Post by skaevola »

josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

The fact that we're having this conversation proves how wrong you are.

If you honestly see the world this way, you might take the time learn more about China's internet. A good starting point are the 9 articles in the economist's special report:

http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21574628-intern...

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#217

Post by umumum »

newbie12 wrote: post #12
_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Fake Thomas Jefferson quote alert:

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/when-government-fea...

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#218

Post by stephen_g »

josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

As an Australian, I'd say that comparing them to China and Russia is too far, but the general feeling is that the US is far less free than Australia, NZ or most European countries.

For example, the fact that you call yourself the land of the free whilst having the largest number of people in prison both by number and proportion of the population, the whole Guantanamo Bay thing, and the constant electronic surveillance, the crazy overreach of the TSA (I couldn't believe it when I had to take off my shoes and jacket at an airport when I passed through the US a few years ago - crazy!) etc.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#219

Post by Ygg2 »

powertower wrote: post #195
Ygg2 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet the "school shooting" incidence in the last 40 years can be counted on two hands. Wow, you are either not informed, not human (got like 100 fingers per hand?) or using some very narrow definition of school shooting (like children below 6 in Michigan). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the...

I've seen that list many times before and was even going to post it myself. I'm guessing you just skimmed over it and did not read the notes. So let me rephrase, how many school shooting can you count on your hands that you knew about? I'm guessing you won't make it pass your two hands. I'm not going to count crime infested ghetto area school shootings that involve a 70% dropout and incarceration rate, where one stud…

So its choice 3.

Enough to know that it's larger than ten. And knowledge of shootings is like the worst possible criteria. How many people you knew that died of asthma?

Why not count the crime infested ghetto? They are also result of current politics in one way or other.

I'm guessing with enough applied statistic any conclusion you wish can be reached. Also even by that statistics you'll reach a conclusion that American has a lot of school killings compared to other countries of similar wealth.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#220

Post by skaevola »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #46
mtgx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

I don't disagree with you on the importance of the 1st and 4th amendments. I think the ACLU and EFF will indeed become stronger. I don't know of any 2nd amendment supporters who are also not strong 1st and 4th supporters, the issue comes down to how their voice is heard. Also I don't know any of them who who wouldn't rather change things peacefully, it is a much better solution.

I don't think this is true. There are many on the right who detest the ACLU as liberals trying to undermine the country.
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