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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#201

Post by ryusage »

reader5000 wrote: post #161
potatolicious wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the idea was to color the US government as "evil" - but rather that the criticism that these are "exceptions" is off base. In all but one of the examples cited, this was acknowledged, deliberate policy of the government at many levels. Extraordinary rendition, imprisonment without charge, torture, drone strikes, all were known, approved of, and carried out with the assistance of many levels of the centr…

US doesn't have the resources to give every one of the hundreds of thousands of individuals interested in blowing up a chunk of Americans a full blown 8 month trial, 3 hots and a cot, and loving handjobs twice per week. As in all things in life there's a tradeoff between "justice" and "security". Luckily for you and most of the people in this thread, you get to benefit from the actions of people who have to make that…

The richest country in the world, by far, and you think we lack the resources to give fair trials and humane prison conditions to the people we accuse of crimes? You do know that innocent people get arrested sometimes, right?

> As in all things in life there's a tradeoff between "justice" and "security"

Some amount of tradeoff between freedom and security, I will grant you. But I can't see how strong security precludes us from actually bothering to properly investigate, try, and incarcerate people. That's just laziness, if not pure malice.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#202

Post by madaxe »

powertower wrote: post #79
josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

> To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I feel perfectly safe. This whole entire issue about the government collecting meta-data is overblown IMO. And comparing it to tyranny and demanding rioting on the streets is literally self-destructive and utmost retarded. Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. But instead the majorit…

Ever been to Congo? Either one? It's fine. And this is coming from a white man who spent a week hitchhiking and walking around with zero security.

I get hassled a lot more by LE in the US on trips there than anywhere else. Hell, I made it across eurasia with a grand total of one brush with the law, which went away with a bribe.

I feel unsafe in the US. Not because of "the terrorists", but because of the jackbooted thugs that you call your government and her agencies.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#203

Post by bmelton »

saalweachter wrote: post #142
tibbon wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough though, that 'right to bear arms' actually gives zero protection from the government as theorized- even if the gov't is acting in a corrupt manner. If this guy was in Texas holed up with a small armory, the FBI would still bust in there and arrest him. If he tried to use that small armory (and wasn't killed) it wouldn't have just been him 'exercising his right' of course.

You know, you are on to something there. What we really have in this country is literally a "right to bear arms". You have no right to fire or wield or use your arms. I can think of no situation where you could fire upon an agent of the government that would not end badly for you, unless there was a total dissolution of Federal and probably State government. Even acting in self defense, even against a corrupt agent o…

Well, in Texas (and other states), there's Castle Doctrine, that would have allowed him the right to fire, wield and use his arms with lethal intent if in fact those FBI agents didn't have a warrant, which provides some protection that the agents would at least have to prove to a judge that there was reasonable cause to arrest him.

Of course, they likely would have had a warrant, and if not, might possibly have gotten one from the FISA court (I'm not sure on the process there) which pretty much always issues a warrant, so it still wouldn't have been great for him.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#204

Post by mvaliente2001 »

reader5000 wrote: post #165
xtracto wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you that you feel safe. An American colleague of mine (doing a 2nd PhD in Liverpool while I was doing my first/only one) told me he did not create accounts in Google/Yahoo/Hot mail not because of what could happen at this time, but at what the people with that information could do in the future. Right now, you feel perfectly safe in your comfortable chair, having all your information in Google, Facebook, and…

You could also develop liver cancer and die, regardless of your cloud data usage!

That's why you don't care about liver cancer when you use the cloud.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#205

Post by euroclydon »

mpyne wrote: post #189
euroclydon wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that solitary confinement is a form of torture. See this highly discussed recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790

I didn't say people don't find solitary confinement to be a form of torture. I did say it's still better than labor camps, especially for the types of "solitary confinement" usually being discussed, which are "cells or prison wings without other prisoners" and not "dark holes with only a slot on the door". Should I ever go to prison I would greatly prefer the "prison wing without other prisoners", though I understand…

Depends on the labor camp I guess. Gulags were meat grinders, especially during the war and famine years in Russia.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#206

Post by saalweachter »

bmelton wrote: post #203
saalweachter wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, you are on to something there. What we really have in this country is literally a "right to bear arms". You have no right to fire or wield or use your arms. I can think of no situation where you could fire upon an agent of the government that would not end badly for you, unless there was a total dissolution of Federal and probably State government. Even acting in self defense, even against a corrupt agent o…

Well, in Texas (and other states), there's Castle Doctrine, that would have allowed him the right to fire, wield and use his arms with lethal intent if in fact those FBI agents didn't have a warrant, which provides some protection that the agents would at least have to prove to a judge that there was reasonable cause to arrest him. Of course, they likely would have had a warrant, and if not, might possibly have gotte…

I do believe there are sets of laws and circumstances which logically or even ethically permit it, but I think in the end The Man wins.

In this case, I suspect there are federal laws against shooting FBI agents, which would trump state law.

Even if there weren't, well, suspects aren't always taken alive to be vindicated in court.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#207

Post by powertower »

madaxe wrote: post #202
powertower wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I feel perfectly safe. This whole entire issue about the government collecting meta-data is overblown IMO. And comparing it to tyranny and demanding rioting on the streets is literally self-destructive and utmost retarded. Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. But instead the majorit…

Ever been to Congo? Either one? It's fine. And this is coming from a white man who spent a week hitchhiking and walking around with zero security. I get hassled a lot more by LE in the US on trips there than anywhere else. Hell, I made it across eurasia with a grand total of one brush with the law, which went away with a bribe. I feel unsafe in the US. Not because of "the terrorists", but because of the jackbooted th…

> And this is coming from a white man who spent a week hitchhiking and walking around with zero security.

Survivor bias. Your experience in Congo does not in any way discredit events of genocide, rape, catabolism, and all the other crazy things happening in those parts of the world.

> but because of the jackbooted thugs that you call your government and her agencies.

Someone asked to see your ID?

For most people, living in the USA is a simple and non-violent experience as far as the government goes. You can post your outliners, but that's all they are.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#208

Post by flyinRyan »

powertower wrote: post #162
flyinRyan wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. Modern US patriotism at its finest: find the shittiest place you can think of and compare the US to that to show how great it is.

Sometimes you need to compare and contrast to the worst to get an idea of what's really going on... Can you get up in the morning, turn on your coffee maker, shower, eat, get in your car, drive to work, ... enjoy your free time, etc? Do you know how many safe things need to happen for any of those events to work? Think about it. From the electricity to the police force to the gas prices and 100 other things. Or just…

Ironically, I had all those things and chose not to live in the US anymore. I live in another first world country that has all those things but doesn't waste money and lives fighting endless wars, doesn't constantly erode my freedom and privacy, etc.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#209

Post by [deleted] »

jvictor118 wrote: post #181
zmb_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I wouldn't say I see the USA in the same light as China and Russia, but I definitely feel uncomfortable when I have to travel to the US for work. Given the US's recent track record with human rights and the ongoing mass surveillance, I just can't be sure some innocent comment on some website I've made at some point won't flag me and cause me to be indefinitely detained. I know it's probably not likely,…

Hey, then why don't you stay the hell out of our country. Thanks, love and kisses, Jason

[deleted]

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#210

Post by drzaiusapelord »

jvictor118 wrote: post #177
stevoski wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign coun…

As an American living an America, I have to disagree with you. First of all, if you really didn't know the U.S. government and military had some creepy capabilities, you're not living on planet earth. Anyone with a brainstem and a basic interest in security and crypto can decipher this basic truth. Many even believe they can crack RSA and similar encryption schemes. Second of all, I don't begrudge any country their r…

>After all, it's not like Carrie from Homeland is chillin' at the CIA reading my texts with my girlfriend. They have neither time nor inclination for that.

When you get accused of a federal crime and they use the handful of terabytes of all your data against you, what then? How can you possibly defend yourself against an entity with unlimited power and funding. Check out how much it costs to defend yourself from a federal charge and what the chances of winning are. If your charge is anything remotely national security related, you have zero chance. Partly because of the massive data they have on every citizen.

> I very much do mind New York City being used for another terrorist attack.

Has PRISM or any other program done this? When we do find out about foiled terrorism plots, it always has to do with FBI informants posing as arms dealers or fellow extremists, which ends with an arrest of a low-hanging fruit weirdo who may or may not be dangerous. All this infrastructure didn't stop the shoe bomber or the underwear guy. Those guys were mildly determined. How will it stop a group as organized as the 9/11 bombers?

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