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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#31

Post by MatthewPhillips »

_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

Seriously HN, this is the top comment? Using a political controversy as an opportunity to dismiss some unrelated political topic is about as low brow as you can get and contributes nothing to mature discussion.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#32

Post by mtgx »

newbie12 wrote: post #12
_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government, not the judges, not the media, and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?!

I also fail to understand people who so viciously defend the 2nd amendment "because of potential tyranny", but don't try to defend the 1st and 4th amendments with the same aggressiveness, when in fact those amendments are the first line of defense against that encroaching tyranny, and if they fail, it's the first clue the country is slipping into tyranny. Would you rather wait until the very last moment, until people can't take it anymore but to rise up against the government with violence and starting a massacre, all just to remove the government? Or would you try to fix things while you still can do it peacefully, by protecting the 1st and 4th amendments, so it doesn't have to come to "using the 2nd amendment right to defend against the government with guns"?

Or maybe it all comes down to who has more money to raise the awareness about it. NRA is a powerful lobby. ACLU and EFF less so.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#34

Post by lemming »

newbie12 wrote: post #12
_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

It's pretty clear from the last couple of days that the balance in the US is pretty firmly tipped towards tyranny by that definition. Certainly I doubt anyone in the government is at all worried about the people being able to do anything about this scandal. There have been several comments on here and elsewhere from people who are thinking twice about publicly supporting Snowden, or are at least aware that that support is probably logged somewhere and might have repercussions in the future. This would have been ridiculous paranoia not that long ago.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#36

Post by rayiner »

belorn wrote: post #21
euroclydon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You certainly do not speak for everyone outside the U.S. who has asked themselves the question: "Can I name a U.S. reporter who has disappeared or been murdered for producing material critical of the government?" or "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?"

> "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?" No, people are just sent to Gitmo to be waterboarded and held indefinite without a trial. They don't even care the nationality of where you come from.

This is not true. Even US citizens capptured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban were transferred out of gitmo.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#37

Post by pfortuny »

venomsnake wrote: post #23
[deleted] wrote: post #14

[deleted]

There is this obscure document known as the us constitution that defines treason as Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. He is definitely not waging war on the US and is not adhering to any enemy, nor giving them aid and comfort. Or he is aiding enemy so secret that the government even cannot tell you who it is…

"Aid" as in intelligence. Any piece of it you give to them can be considered treason. To make public is to yield to the enemy...

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#38

Post by stevoski »

josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing:

* "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania.

* "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture)

* holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay

* killing people remotely in foreign countries, including their own citizens based on the president's decision. Sometimes through mistaken identity or bad intel or pure human error the wrong person is killed, or the right person is killed with their children

* The "Kids for Cash Scandal" where a judge received kickbacks from a prison owner to give juveniles harsher sentences.

* And finally, spying at an enormous degree on the US population at large.

These are astonishing things and I'm even more staggered that people en masse don't get outraged by these things and demand change.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#39

Post by rayiner »

venomsnake wrote: post #23
[deleted] wrote: post #14

[deleted]

There is this obscure document known as the us constitution that defines treason as Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. He is definitely not waging war on the US and is not adhering to any enemy, nor giving them aid and comfort. Or he is aiding enemy so secret that the government even cannot tell you who it is…

Nor is snowden going to be tried for treason.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#40

Post by Jare »

gizzlon wrote: post #17
josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

I live in Scandinavia and I don't think most people here see the US in the same light as China and Russia. But, OTOTH, I do think most people see Europe as more open than the US. It's not like it's a unique and magical "land of the free" like some people seem to believe.

My overall, fact-less impression is that the UK has already cast a pretty wide public surveillance net. They don't seem to be actually using it for enforcing anything, however. I don't think I would blink twice if it turns out they have a PRISM-like operation going on.
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