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Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

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Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#101

Post by inthewind »

danenania wrote: post #91
inthewind wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to democracy (or rather the facade)! Does the US president actually have that much individual power anyway? I wish it was more like the film Dave, inasmuch as that the president on his first day questions all the wrongs, and suggests to put them all right! People love a figurehead to moan and blame, but it's not ever as simple as that. I'm not making excuses for Obama, but he's also up against the establishme…

"I'm not making excuses for Obama, but he's also up against the establishment." Obama's not 'up against' the establishment. He is the establishment. After everything he's done, how on earth are people still ascribing good intentions to this guy?

That's not what I was getting at. I was suggesting that pointing the finger of blame at one person, and placing the onus on them - and asking them to resign is a little shortsighted. Expecting the problem to just vanish is merely wishful thinking.

Is he or is he not the establishment, that's probably another debate in itself.

I'm over the pond here, so I can't quite grok the American reaction to the recent news over this Prism stuff. I'd expect the Hacker news community to be pissed, but what's the general feeling over there?

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#102

Post by jasonlotito »

danenania wrote: post #91
inthewind wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to democracy (or rather the facade)! Does the US president actually have that much individual power anyway? I wish it was more like the film Dave, inasmuch as that the president on his first day questions all the wrongs, and suggests to put them all right! People love a figurehead to moan and blame, but it's not ever as simple as that. I'm not making excuses for Obama, but he's also up against the establishme…

"I'm not making excuses for Obama, but he's also up against the establishment." Obama's not 'up against' the establishment. He is the establishment. After everything he's done, how on earth are people still ascribing good intentions to this guy?

You make it seem as if keeping promises and good intentions are the same thing. How many lives is a promise worth?

I'd much rather have a politician that bas his plans on the latest known evidence, rather than blindly adhering to promises made. This isn't to suggest that this is what happened here, but frankly, it's too early to tell. Information is still being spilled day by day.

And for many of this, it isn't news. It's stuff we've known was going on for a long time. But shit, some whistleblower comes out and everyone suddenly becomes all for privacy, forgetting that countless times scaremongers and conspiracy theorists were shouted down.

This is what the American people voted for many times, not just in the presidential elections. And it didn't start with Obama.

So, until you can answer "How many lives is a promise worth?" you're simply playing arm chair politics. It's easy to get indignant and out of sorts when you don't have any responsibility.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#103

Post by Shivetya »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #49
pilif wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time people were looking forward to a meaningful conflict, it plunged the whole world into 4 years of war, followed by another 7. Be careful what you wish for. We need a peaceful solution for this. Vote these people away. Replace them by better people. Educate those who think they have nothing to hide.

The scary thing is this: these people were already voted away. People voted for Obama when he promised the end of warrantless wiretapping, the closing down of Guantanamo, etc. Why should voters believe the next guy who promises these things? It feels hopeless.

what was the excuse for voting for him again in 2012?

really I fail to understand people here, One day they bitch about invasion of privacy the next day they want the same people to have every bit of control over their health care. Well guess what, you cannot have it both ways.

Granted he had help from a major government agency interfering with groups opposed to his reelection from gathering funds. So perhaps you didn't have a choice in who won.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#104

Post by gjm11 »

ak39 wrote: post #85
bigiain wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (here in .au) had a 4 term Prime Minister defend reneging on election promises by claiming they were "non-core promises" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Government ) The scary thing? That was his _first_ term, and "we" voted him in three more times... "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill

False dichotomy. The problem is not Democracy vs every other non-democratic system, it's in the implementation details of the current versions. We just need to refactor Democracy Version 1.0. Far from a rewrite. And where do we begin? Upholding campaign promises, that's where. They must be watertight like contracts where the voters can sue.

There has to be some way for campaigning politicians to make non-watertight promises too. (For almost any promise you might make, there will be some circumstances in which breaking it would be the right thing.)

Given the option of making truly watertight promises and making ones with escape clauses, most politicians most of the time will make the ones that they can get out of.

So then who will make the most impressive-sounding "watertight" promises? Candidates who know they'll never actually get into power. Candidates who expect to be able to weasel out of those allegedly watertight promises somehow. (They probably will.)

This doesn't sound to me like an improvement. Am I being too cynical? Is there some way to have watertight campaign promises without these problems?

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#105

Post by Andrenid »

pvdm wrote: post #40
rurounijones wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Infrastructure Against Humanity"... That is a really really nice term for it. Also very memorable, I shall be appropriating this term for future use.

Turnkey tyranny is the other.

Interesting that TurnkeyTyranny.com redirects to an article about the NSA issue on the Guardian.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#106

Post by flyinRyan »

phryk wrote: post #96
flyinRyan wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The time voting would help was gone years and years ago. If you want to make peaceful change now you're going to need to get involved in politics directly (e.g. "The pirate party" but don't call your party that in the US. In fact, I'd call them "democrats" or "republicans", which ever is more popular). Until enough of us do this, things will just continue to get worse. There is no politician out there who truly has y…

I'd say that culture is a much more powerful agent of change than traditional political work could ever be. Politicians can act as scribes and put down into legislation a part of the cultural ethos, but they don't do much in the way of inspiring that ethos in the first place. Practice what you preach, call bullshit by its' name.

I don't know about you, but I remember a time where calling your representative could affect change. In the last ~10 years politicians have shown that they no longer care. Studies in Canada and various places have shown that simply advertising changes enough people's behavior to be effective. So now politicians feel ok simply ignoring their constituent so long as they get enough advertising money to secure a win. Culture of the "plebs" is irrelevant to the 1% so long as the plebs aren't armed with a mind to do something with those arms.

If you want to change the system at this state the only option is to be the system.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#107

Post by PavlovsCat »

phryk wrote: post #97
cabalamat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need a new conduit for effecting change. In Europe this conduit is called the Pirate Party. If we are to win this fight, it's one of our best vehicles to do so.

At least in Germany a lot of people have become disillusioned by the (german) Pirate Party. They seem to have degraded into a mix of ridiculous infighting and traditional political party stuff. I'd much rather see them to push for just one topic: Getting direct democracy. Right now they are just dispersing all the resources they have (in mind and matter) towards hundreds if not thousands of different topics and don't…

Yeah, unfortunately. I think the PP proved that there is potential and support for real change; I think they basically got elected on the platform of not being like all those other suits, and I enjoy(ed) that. But of course, that alone is not enough.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#108

Post by cabalamat »

phryk wrote: post #97
cabalamat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need a new conduit for effecting change. In Europe this conduit is called the Pirate Party. If we are to win this fight, it's one of our best vehicles to do so.

At least in Germany a lot of people have become disillusioned by the (german) Pirate Party. They seem to have degraded into a mix of ridiculous infighting and traditional political party stuff. I'd much rather see them to push for just one topic: Getting direct democracy. Right now they are just dispersing all the resources they have (in mind and matter) towards hundreds if not thousands of different topics and don't…

> At least in Germany a lot of people have become disillusioned by the (german) Pirate Party.

In termss of the Hype Cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle), they've passed the peak of inflated expectations and are now in the trough of dissillusionment. This state will not last forever.

> They seem to have degraded into a mix of ridiculous infighting and traditional political party stuff.

They grew too quickly. Digital rights issues aren't going away, and nor are the Pirates.

> I'd much rather see them to push for just one topic: Getting direct democracy.

No, they need a full range of policies if they are to get people to vote for them. Otherwise, people will say "I agree with you on X, but other policies are more important to me, so I won't be voting for you."

> Right now they are just dispersing all the resources they have (in mind and matter) towards hundreds if not thousands of different topics

As I pointed out above, this is necessary.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#109

Post by mehwoot »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #67
mehwoot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people— sometimes the most technically competent ones— were busily telling them that wholesale surveillance was infeasible... greatly underestimating the available funding and ingenuity. The fact that this is happening to _everyone_... Has this actually changed? Is there any evidence that a U.S. citizen's gmail account, or skype calls, or yahoo searches, or facebook information, has been obtained without a c…

> I'm not a U.S. citizen and have always assumed that anything I put on these companies' servers can be read by the U.S. government at will. Why are you ok with that?

Firstly, I feel like assuming the government has the ability to monitor your communications and acting accordingly is better than assuming they can't and getting worried when it turns out they do.

Secondly, I have zero power to change how the U.S. conducts it's business in this regard so I'm not going to expend energy fighting it, I just take it into account and try not to use these services in a way that I wouldn't want to be discovered.

Thirdly, I do agree that the government (U.S. or mine) should be allowed to get information on me if they show probable cause. I strongly support that. And if I accept people might look at my stuff, then it doesn't really matter in the end why they are doing it- I should still plan accordingly. The Government could very well have probable cause to investigate me even when I've done nothing wrong.

We have the technology to keep what we do online anonymous. Even if the government had no power to check this, stuff like the AOL search data debacle shows there is always a non zero possibility someone could be looking at your unprotected data. If you're worried about that, you should protect your data. That's the only real solution. I agree with people who fight against illegitimate or non transparent ways people try and access that data- but that's not what I rely on to keep my privacy.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#110

Post by ionforce »

phryk wrote: post #97
cabalamat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need a new conduit for effecting change. In Europe this conduit is called the Pirate Party. If we are to win this fight, it's one of our best vehicles to do so.

At least in Germany a lot of people have become disillusioned by the (german) Pirate Party. They seem to have degraded into a mix of ridiculous infighting and traditional political party stuff. I'd much rather see them to push for just one topic: Getting direct democracy. Right now they are just dispersing all the resources they have (in mind and matter) towards hundreds if not thousands of different topics and don't…

You don't want direct democracy. Otherwise the majority will rule over the minority.
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