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Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#161

Post by freeman478 »

dm2 wrote: post #158
WildUtah wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause , supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

That is a strong argument but I'd like to play devils advocate for a second. First, "unreasonable" is a key word. Is the copying of data without any noticeable inconvenience to the citizen considered unreasonable? Another key word would be "seized", is copying considered seizing? Seizing is legally defined as the removal of property, one might argue that no seizure was ever made during this wiretapping. Second, the B…

> Another key word would be "seized", is copying considered seizing? Seizing is legally defined as the removal of property, one might argue that no seizure was ever made during this wiretapping.

This reminds me of the copyright talks but obviously when it's citizens doing it, copying is stealing but when it's NSA, copying is not an issue because it does not remove anything ...

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#162

Post by grey-area »

toyg wrote: post #154
grey-area wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd recommend reading Fatal Purity if you want to understand just how evil the French Revolution really was - even the architects became its victims in huge numbers. The terror is not something I would wish on any country, and it is no way comparable to the American revolution in scope or brutality, that and the Russian revolution are fascinating periods but great examples of why revolution often ends in disaster for…

European socialism owes more to the threat of Stalinism than we like to admit; western governments were forced into improving conditions for their working classes mostly by the threat of civil unrest, while leftist parties and unions benefited enormously from their soviet connections - both in motivational and economic terms. As soon as the USSR disappeared, now-unchecked European elites promptly started renegotiatin…

European socialism owes more to the threat of Stalinism than we like to admit; western governments were forced into improving conditions for their working classes mostly by the threat of civil unrest

With respect I completely disagree with this - the reforms to working conditions and the state of our societies in Europe which have happened since Engels wrote 'The conditions of the working classes in England' or Marx 'Capital' have improved because of gradual progress in western democracies introduced because of peaceful protest and people working within the democratic process, on things like mandatory schooling, no child labour, minimum wages, right to assembly, health services, benefits etc. That's a far longer time-frame and was not influenced by the USSR, either in funding western political groups or acting as a sort of bogieman for western governments.

I disagree that revolutions and the attendant violence and destruction are necessary or useful in deposing tyranny, quite often they produce the opposite effect, as the two examples you initially brought up show.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#163

Post by flyinRyan »

cpursley wrote: post #121
olefoo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more effective list of tactics (for the long term): 1. poison databases; feed bogus information to surveillance systems at all levels, do this as a matter of course, make it pop culture. 2. build darknets: for instance wifi nodes disconnected from the internet that multiple communities use as a dropbox and rendezvous point ( a linux box, a solar cell, some git magic (or UUCP/Usenet for the old school feel ), and yo…

Good idea. Overwhelm the system with the keywords they're flagging. i.e., bomb. pentagon. drop-point. fertilizer. sarah jessica parker.

This didn't help with the phone logging system.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#164

Post by flyinRyan »

csomar wrote: post #57
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? You know, Tunisia went on a relatively peaceful revolution and now we have less freedom and more problems/unemployment. It's even worse for countries where the revolution is violent. Having lived…

Pretty much every place that ever one it's independence did so through violence or the threat of violence (yes, India very much included).

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#165

Post by dllthomas »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

Don't just click a link, but still click the link!

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#166

Post by dllthomas »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #122
nikcub wrote: post #23

You need to have been convicted to receive a pardon, the petition should be not to prosecute. Despite the semantics, this is a good idea to let the administration know that a lot of citizens do not consider what Snowden did to be a crime and support his actions.

A petition not to prosecute, even if it was granted, would be worthless. If someone's pardoned, then they can't be prosecuted again. If they're just not-prosecuted, they can easily be prosecuted later.

It's also much less clear a statement, as there can be other reasons not to prosecute (lack of evidence, for instance).

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#167

Post by flyinRyan »

rd108 wrote: post #97
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

This is foolish. Non-violent protest is how the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King, Jr. forced better law, Gandhi did the same and freed India from the British empire. And today we're much more networked and able to communicate directly, P2P, without the media or government as message passer. Our system works remarkably well, considering how poorly it works ;) Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater- th…

>This is foolish. Non-violent protest is how the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King, Jr. forced better law, Gandhi did the same and freed India from the British empire.

What ridiculous nonsense. King would have gone nowhere had it not been for the Black Panthers blowing shit up (he even mentioned "the blast heard round the world" in one of his speeches, so he knew this). Likewise Gandhi would have just been ignored or killed had it not been for courageous revolutionaries like Bhagat Singh.

The truth is, a proper revolution requires violence (or the threat of it) and a peaceful side. The violent part is requires to force actual change and the peaceful side is needed so the targeted party have someone to give the power over too. The British empire would never have handed the reigns to someone like Bhagat Singh. But once Singh and co had made holding onto India simply not worth it, they gladly stepped back and claimed it was because of Gandhi. This way, the next time they're doing some awful the people will hopefully think they can be like Gandhi and they would be free to just ignore/kill them.

Governments don't want people to understand just how effective violence actually is (if violence isn't effective why do governments use it so much and try to maintain a monopoly on it?) because they don't like to lose.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#168

Post by flyinRyan »

cloverich wrote: post #142
rdtsc wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Non-violent protest is how the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King, Jr. forced better law The was Malcolm X though. The threat of militant and violent backlash was there and served like a booster for the non-violent factions. Otherwise look at Occupy movement. How many bankers are in jail? None. There _has_ to be a background and credible threat to the system so it would consider the peaceful alternative a…

In all fairness, the Occupy movement didn't have direction, leaders, an agreed set of goals.. - in short any of the things needed to turn that energy into change . There were things here and there that many seemed to agree on - but it was not nearly focused enough to matter. I think if it were accompanied by any kind of violent protests, the people in general would have completely turned on it - and without legitimat…

This is not true. There were plenty of things that were university desired from the Occupy movement (e.g. bankers in jail). But since it was purely peaceful it was ignored, sniped and smeared until it finally unraveled. The same thing would have happened to Gandhi and MLK Jr. had it not been for violent groups working at the same time.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#169

Post by flyinRyan »

timberlane wrote: post #74
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

I'd understand if you wanted to do additional actions that can help. But signing this petition takes 30 seconds and is useful. I urge you to consider it.

Citation needed that it's even remotely useful because I've only ever seen evidence to the contrary.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#170

Post by flyinRyan »

cinquemb wrote: post #43
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

True, but let us give them the chance to ignore yet another petition and truly prove to us that we as citizens have little say in the status quo in the government that is supposed to represent all its people. More fuel for the fire couldn't hurt eh? Besides it's summer time…

How many more times do they need to prove this to us? "Well, I know he punched me in the face, kicked me in the balls and raped my girlfriend in front of me but I'm still not convinced he wants trouble".
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