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Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#131

Post by losvedir »

timr wrote: post #80
staunch wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama has publicly acknowledged that phone records are being collected en masse. In his own words: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/06/07/transcript-what-oba...

That's a different program, and the US Supreme Court has already ruled on the legality of collecting the "metadata" that it's gathering, without a warrant. It's far less controversial than the PRISM program, which is what is being discussed here.

> It's far less controversial than the PRISM program, which is what is being discussed here.

Is it, though? The widespread Verizon metadata gathering is what I'm most concerned with right now. It, too, was whistleblown by Snowden.

> the US Supreme Court has already ruled on the legality

I understand this program to be ruled unconstitutional by the Foreign International Surveillance Court, albeit with the findings suppressed by the justice department for "national security" reasons.

I thought this was the stuff Senators Wyden and Udall were briefed on and aghast about, but unable to explain to the American people.

Do you understand this differently?

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#132

Post by dpearson »

Tloewald wrote: post #98
dpearson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nixon received a "full, free, and absolute pardon" from Gerald Ford [0], despite not actually having even stood trial, let alone having been convicted. [0]: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/26847.html

It's not clear if this would have stood up in court, since Nixon was never prosecuted.

However, when the president of the United States issues a pardon, even one that is of questionable legality, it's still a powerful statement: Ford placed the power and influence of the Oval Office in between Nixon and any prosecutor.

This petition suggests a similar maneuver with Obama and Snowden.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#133

Post by logn »

timr wrote: post #127
logn wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the difference between the two. My point was that the Verizon collection of data very clearly was for the entire customer base of their major subsidiary. Also this 'metadata' has a staggering amount of information, like geocodes, dialed and received numbers, potentially content of SMS, downloaded apps, sites visited, etc. Further if this subsidiary controlled any Internet backbone (which I have no idea if that…

"I know the difference between the two. My point was that the Verizon collection of data very clearly was for the entire customer base of their major subsidiary." Again, though...that program is legal. It's not even a controversial point (unlike with PRISM). From what I know of it, the rationale for the supreme court decision that says mass collection of metadata is legal is fairly well established, has a long judici…

Regarding the point I made on warrants for broad groups, remember that it's been leaked (or who knows, publicly admitted probably), that the NSA considers collection of data to be distinct from analysis of data. And that mere collection doesn't require cause/warrant. What needs to be leaked are how they define all those terms... and if there's any commonplace rule-bending. Who's to say that between the collection of data and the analysis, they don't then go and get warrants to analyze based on their work separating out what data they already had warrants for? What about computerized analysis (is that technically 'collection' to the NSA)? There's all sorts of room for abuse when you have this absolutely massive set of data and secrecy protecting almost every aspect of the operation.

Granted, IANAL, but I have worked as an engineer in In-Q-Tel funded companies, text analysis, and search. Nothing I'm saying is any reflection or representation of anyone I've worked for and is only my ill-informed, zany, personal opinion.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#134

Post by eru »

cpursley wrote: post #121
olefoo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more effective list of tactics (for the long term): 1. poison databases; feed bogus information to surveillance systems at all levels, do this as a matter of course, make it pop culture. 2. build darknets: for instance wifi nodes disconnected from the internet that multiple communities use as a dropbox and rendezvous point ( a linux box, a solar cell, some git magic (or UUCP/Usenet for the old school feel ), and yo…

Good idea. Overwhelm the system with the keywords they're flagging. i.e., bomb. pentagon. drop-point. fertilizer. sarah jessica parker.

Their systems are probably smarter than grep, by now.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#135

Post by mindcrime »

cpursley wrote: post #121
olefoo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more effective list of tactics (for the long term): 1. poison databases; feed bogus information to surveillance systems at all levels, do this as a matter of course, make it pop culture. 2. build darknets: for instance wifi nodes disconnected from the internet that multiple communities use as a dropbox and rendezvous point ( a linux box, a solar cell, some git magic (or UUCP/Usenet for the old school feel ), and yo…

Good idea. Overwhelm the system with the keywords they're flagging. i.e., bomb. pentagon. drop-point. fertilizer. sarah jessica parker.

What (jihad) are you (allah) talking (semtex) talking about (thermite) dude? That is the worst (white house ) plot or plan I've ever heard in my (uranium) life. I can C4 myself that this plot is not "the bomb", as they say. This needs to bake, or should I say "pressure cooker" a little bit longer before we explode it on people. If we (hack secure systems) find useful (enriched) data and share it (hack the planet) with the people who really need it( secure, classified, NOFORN) we won't let them trash our rights. Trust your techolust.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#136

Post by MikeKusold »

In the West Wing, a US TV Show that is no longer on air after 8 seasons, the White House communications director leaked to the press that the US had a military space shuttle. He leaked this so that astronauts on board a disabled shuttle could be rescued. In the TV show, the public generally agreed with what he did and treated him as a hero.

(This is where the relevant part comes into play)

Before the communications director was unceremoniously fired by the President, the President told the communications director:

"When you walk out of here, there'll be people out there, perhaps a great many, who'll think of you as a hero. I just don't for a moment want you thinking I'll be one of them."

(disclaimer/spoiler: The communications director was pardoned by the President after much deliberation on the President's part. This was mainly due to his very close friendship, and the fact that the communications director had a family on the way)

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#137

Post by rdtsc »

rd108 wrote: post #97
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

This is foolish. Non-violent protest is how the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King, Jr. forced better law, Gandhi did the same and freed India from the British empire. And today we're much more networked and able to communicate directly, P2P, without the media or government as message passer. Our system works remarkably well, considering how poorly it works ;) Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater- th…

> Non-violent protest is how the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King, Jr. forced better law

The was Malcolm X though. The threat of militant and violent backlash was there and served like a booster for the non-violent factions. Otherwise look at Occupy movement. How many bankers are in jail? None. There _has_ to be a background and credible threat to the system so it would consider the peaceful alternative as a pretty good deal.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#138

Post by smacktoward »

mpyne wrote: post #84
csomar wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? You know, Tunisia went on a relatively peaceful revolution and now we have less freedom and more problems/unemployment. It's even worse for countries where the revolution is violent. Having lived…

As another example, the U.S. is actually on its second government, not its first. After the American Revolution we setup a government under the "Articles of Confederation". To put it bluntly, this new government sucked and was useless. A convention was held to suggest improvements for the Articles; they decided instead to do it over again and propose a government that could actually stand the test of time. The framer…

Some political scientists would say we're actually on our third or fourth.

The third U.S. republic was created after the Civil War, with the passage of Constitutional amendments that made the Federal government unambiguously superior in power to the governments of the states.

The fourth U.S. republic was created during the Progressive Era, with the creation of the "regulatory state" in which significant authority over economic matters was delegated from Congress and the courts to regulatory agencies in the Executive Branch. This system evolved gradually over the years (with the biggest changes coming through Roosevelt's New Deal and Johnson's Great Society) into the system we live in today.

The changes wrought by the Civil War were unfortunately quite violent, but all the other changes have been peaceful, as you note. Our ability to reinvent our democracy in this fashion is a big part of why the Constitution has survived so long -- we can change how we govern ourselves in big ways without having to tear it up and start anew.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#139

Post by smacktoward »

rd108 wrote: post #93
enraged_camel wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First you say this: Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? Then you say this: Want to make change? Educate people. nothing else. Your teachers must have omitted teaching you about the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War protests. And those are only two examples where protesting and rioting actually made a huge difference.

The Civil Rights movement used peace tactics, non-violence and Ghandian ethics. The Vietnam war protests were largely peaceful, except when e.g. government soldiers attacked college students at Kent State. @csomar is correct that changing peoples minds and following nonviolent tactics can effect change-- although not always matching everyone's expectations

The Vietnam war protests were largely peaceful, except when e.g. government soldiers attacked college students at Kent State.

With some significant exceptions, like the Weather Underground (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground).

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#140

Post by jwatte »

There is no way this petition can succeed. The powers that be speak realpolitik, and you don't. It's just that, with easier worldwide media outlets, their secrecy is occasionally exposed for a brief while until we forget. Go home. Get on with your life. If you're not already playing in the big leagues, there is literally nothing you can do.
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