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Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

guardian.co.uk

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Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#271

Post by jlgreco »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #264
jlgreco wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right... Gandhi's approach is 'guaranteed' to work in limited circumstances. It does not work if your numbers are too few, if the opposition has a greater capacity for violence than you anticipate (this isn't about the world being violent, only the subset that oppose you need to be sufficiently violent. Relying on somebody else using violence against your murderers in the outraged aftermath of your slaughter is just…

So like we basically agree from the perspective of outsiders, but that's not really what I meant. If you have been radicalized to the extent of being willing to die for nonviolence, you still win if they kill you because you are dying for your beliefs. As a radicalized person, there cannot even be futile resistance, because if the violent people were to kill all of their enemies, there wouldn't be any violence left t…

I guess you and I have a fundamentally different notion of "win". If you are radicalized, they kill you for it, and then life for everyone else carries on as it was, then for me that is not a win. That is beyond any doubt a loss, and I consider opting to do that rather than sacrifice non-violence for a hope at enacting change that others can appreciate to be a selfish act.

Nonviolence is not a goal for me. I consider it a tool with limited application. Failing to build a doghouse with a hammer, instead of successfully building the doghouse with a screwdrivers, is nothing to be proud of. The doghouse is what I am interested in, not the application of hammers.

Or to put it in more concrete terms, the world would not be a better place had the French Resistance chosen to adopt nonviolent noncompliance. Their acts of violence were, without any question, justified and "worth it".

And yes, people were absolutely putting their lives at risk during the civil rights era. People were being beaten and in many cases, killed.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#272

Post by quackerhacker »

woah wrote: post #269
quackerhacker wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as I was about to sign the petition (I've only signed 1 other one before to revoke the Westboro Baptist Church, lol)....I plan to run a "successful," startup someday soon, do you think it's safe to sign a petition (esp when I don't believe Aaron Swartz's demise was self-inflicted).

Grow some balls.

I'm not scared at all....just that I need to live for my kids :/

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#273

Post by gridmaths »

LoganCale wrote: post #197
voidlogic wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to see this get lots of votes, just so the White House has to write a response. Even though I know what they will say...

They never responded to the Aaron Swartz petition and it reached twice the required signatures to "guarantee" a response.

fuckers

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#274

Post by Nrsolis »

rossjudson wrote: post #248
Nrsolis wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, I think you're confusing "ideals" with "lawful behavior". You can be a supporter of the EFF and believe that the work the NSA is doing is necessary and good for the country. I worked on Lawful Interception systems and I had no problem with their use as long as a COMPETENT COURT was the one regulating it.

This seems to be the critical component, to me. The intercepts must go through a competent court, which must create some form of public record that will eventually be released. There have to be enough judges to handle the load. And if the load is huge, for these intercepts we need to look at why that is, and ensure it's not just fishing. On the other hand, maybe big data fishing is the most effective method.

So, David Simon (of The Wire/Treme fame) wrote this up:

http://davidsimon.com/we-are-shocked-shocked/

I think he makes some good points.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#275

Post by foobarbazqux »

jlgreco wrote: post #271
foobarbazqux wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like we basically agree from the perspective of outsiders, but that's not really what I meant. If you have been radicalized to the extent of being willing to die for nonviolence, you still win if they kill you because you are dying for your beliefs. As a radicalized person, there cannot even be futile resistance, because if the violent people were to kill all of their enemies, there wouldn't be any violence left t…

I guess you and I have a fundamentally different notion of "win". If you are radicalized, they kill you for it, and then life for everyone else carries on as it was, then for me that is not a win. That is beyond any doubt a loss, and I consider opting to do that rather than sacrifice non-violence for a hope at enacting change that others can appreciate to be a selfish act. Nonviolence is not a goal for me. I consider…

You and I have the same idea of win and we share similar beliefs; I was trying to explain things from what I understand to be the mindset of someone who fully buys into Gandhi's belief system. I seem to be doing a bad job... and there is a chance I have got it all wrong anyway.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#276

Post by jgamman »

anyone else noted the connection between the UK's Guardian newspaper ("a charitable foundation existing between 1936 and 2008, which aimed to ensure the paper's editorial independence in perpetuity, maintaining its financial health to ensure it did not become vulnerable to take overs by for-profit media groups") and the role of the fourth estate lately? begs the question - can a govt be scutinised with a profit-seeking structure? implications for how the IT industry has cannibilised their revenue model is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#277

Post by rapind »

jlgreco wrote: post #271
foobarbazqux wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like we basically agree from the perspective of outsiders, but that's not really what I meant. If you have been radicalized to the extent of being willing to die for nonviolence, you still win if they kill you because you are dying for your beliefs. As a radicalized person, there cannot even be futile resistance, because if the violent people were to kill all of their enemies, there wouldn't be any violence left t…

I guess you and I have a fundamentally different notion of "win". If you are radicalized, they kill you for it, and then life for everyone else carries on as it was, then for me that is not a win. That is beyond any doubt a loss, and I consider opting to do that rather than sacrifice non-violence for a hope at enacting change that others can appreciate to be a selfish act. Nonviolence is not a goal for me. I consider…

I respectfully have to say that I think you're missing the point. If you'll forgive how ridiculous this sounds, I'll use your analogy to illustrate the difference.

It's not about what you build with the hammer that matters to this person. It's that he consistently uses the hammer regardless of what is built or how efficiently it is accomplished, because he believes using the hammer to be the true way of life and far more important than the product being created. By using a more suitable tool he believes that he has already lost.

It's a zen thing.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#278

Post by danenania »

rdl wrote: post #240
nostrademons wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...which makes me wonder if the actual reality isn't worse than I'd assumed, with actual widespread abuses and not just theoretical abuses. From the video, it sounds like he was just ground-down by the cavalier attitude of the people around him towards the citizens whose privacy they were entrusted with. Eventually he couldn't reconcile that anymore with his internal moral compass, and so he leaked it and figured "le…

Maybe. I personally would never leak something I gained through employment to the public; if I had been in his position and felt it was truly worth leaking/sacrificing my career and freedom, I would have gone to NSA/DOD IG, Congress, or a federal judge. (at a private company, to CEO/CFO/board or regulators/police) There isn't much which would make me leak to the public but not take up arms (I mean, if somehow time tr…

"I would have gone to NSA/DOD IG, Congress, or a federal judge"

He might as well have destroyed all the incriminating data and admitted himself to Guantanamo of his own accord for all the good that would do.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#279

Post by jlgreco »

rapind wrote: post #277
jlgreco wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you and I have a fundamentally different notion of "win". If you are radicalized, they kill you for it, and then life for everyone else carries on as it was, then for me that is not a win. That is beyond any doubt a loss, and I consider opting to do that rather than sacrifice non-violence for a hope at enacting change that others can appreciate to be a selfish act. Nonviolence is not a goal for me. I consider…

I respectfully have to say that I think you're missing the point. If you'll forgive how ridiculous this sounds, I'll use your analogy to illustrate the difference. It's not about what you build with the hammer that matters to this person. It's that he consistently uses the hammer regardless of what is built or how efficiently it is accomplished, because he believes using the hammer to be the true way of life and far…

No, that came through loud and clear to me. I disagree with him; picking the best tool for the job is more important than remaining pure in your tool use. I think that his belief that "using the hammer to be the true way of life and far more important than the product being created" is selfish. It is better to sacrifice your purity to save others. There is nothing noble about being trampled.

Had the French Resistance decided that the principles of nonviolence and noncompliance were more important than killing german officers and blowing up trains, then I would think far less of them. If he thinks that they lost the moment they used violence and sabotage, then I think he is wrong.

Edit: I disagree with Gandhi, not him.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#280

Post by jlgreco »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #275
jlgreco wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you and I have a fundamentally different notion of "win". If you are radicalized, they kill you for it, and then life for everyone else carries on as it was, then for me that is not a win. That is beyond any doubt a loss, and I consider opting to do that rather than sacrifice non-violence for a hope at enacting change that others can appreciate to be a selfish act. Nonviolence is not a goal for me. I consider…

You and I have the same idea of win and we share similar beliefs; I was trying to explain things from what I understand to be the mindset of someone who fully buys into Gandhi's belief system. I seem to be doing a bad job... and there is a chance I have got it all wrong anyway.

Ah, I see. Well, in that case my disagreement is with Gandhi.
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