The 4th Amendment is dead. Long Live the 4th Amendment!
People with nothing to hide
251–260 of 268 posts
Re: People with nothing to hide
#252I may have well been one of those people, but I recently had a terrible experience crossing the border into Canada. I was on a bus, and everyone was waived through but me. They asked the purpose of my visit, which was to see an old friend. I told them truthfully when they asked, that I'd met her on the internet years and years ago, as a teenager. I also had met her in real life before. I was pulled aside for over 30 minutes and grilled about embarrassing, irrelevant things. The border patrol then asked for me to unlock my phone to look at my email. I was shocked and asked if that was necessary and/or legal. He looked at me with this cold look and said, "This is the border. We can ask you to do anything."
I didn't have anything to hide but I just felt so violated sitting there on a bench while he looked through my phone. It was pretty traumatic for me and I've gotten flashbacks to the event a few times - it will make me take precautions and think twice before traveling with my laptop and phone if the border patrol can just ask for the password - which, I don't think they can, but they could also stop me from entering Canada probably if I denied.
It's not as obvious when it's going on behind the scenes, but it's so different for me now that I went through this event. I just can't get over how violated I felt, and honestly - I ask any of the people Tweeting for that to happen to them, for some cold-eyed patrol officer to grab your phone, force you to unlock it, and just go through your mail, Facebook, snapchat, embarrassing photos, etc. Just because it happens behind the scenes doesn't make it better.
Re: People with nothing to hide
#253Questions for people with nothing to hide: 1. Have you ever had an abortion? 2. Have you ever cheated on your husband / wife? 3. Are you currently looking for a new job? 4. Have you ever being diagnosed with a mental illness? 5. Are you currently on anti-depressants? 6. Were you ever sexually abused as a child? 7. Have you ever fancied someone of the same sex? 8. Have you ever had sex with someone of the same sex? 9.…
Great list! I tried to think of a persuasive, semi-automated way to use it and came up with this: First, make a website where you would log in with Facebook or Google (and optionally give your Twitter handle) and then give answers to questions like the ones above. Filled-in answer forms would be stored and then (by default) accessible to the public (through a search form and a "latest" column on the front page). Incl…
Here's a model you can work off: http://www.trialbytimeline.org.nz/
Re: People with nothing to hide
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't have nothing to hide from the government. This doesn't mean everyone I know should know everything about me. I am just a number for people collecting information about me, whereas for YOU or anyone in my social circle, certain kind of information can change my reputation and the way I'm seen by my peers forever. Stop equating "the government is doing statistics about people and keeping that information confid…
> I don't have nothing to hide from the government. Imagine some crazy, hard-line politicians get elected and make a law that retroactively throws to jail women who get abortions. Or homosexuals. Or maybe it's a party that decides the 1% is due for some rich-shaming, who knows. Last century it was communists, and maybe the USA will feel nostalgia for that again[1] but, who knows who will paranoia strike tomorrow? Thi…
> Imagine some crazy, hard-line politicians get elected and make a law that retroactively throws to jail women who get abortions. Or homosexuals. Or maybe it's a party that decides the 1% is due for some rich-shaming, who knows.
There are 2 possibilities here: 1) Democracy failed hard allowing MANY crazy people to get power without people allowing it. 2) The majority of people actually want those things and they vote for a candidate that will do them. If that's not ok for you (it isn't for me too) then you are questioning democracy itself.
Both are things that are not going to happen. If they will, I'll just leave my country of residence.
> Not to mention bullshit non-crimes like smoking pot, drug consumption, or possession of child pornography.
Dura lex sed lex. There is nothing you can do here, except for voting for candidates that promise to remove these laws. Until their election, if you think you're above a single law, then you entitle yourself to be above ANY law. If this argument was to be applied by everyone our society would descend into chaos.
Re: People with nothing to hide
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't have nothing to hide from the government. This doesn't mean everyone I know should know everything about me. I am just a number for people collecting information about me, whereas for YOU or anyone in my social circle, certain kind of information can change my reputation and the way I'm seen by my peers forever. Stop equating "the government is doing statistics about people and keeping that information confid…
The government was also keeping the existence of PRISM confidential....
One thing is leaking the fact that there is a program, another to leak all the data.
Re: People with nothing to hide
#256Think about how the NSA helped stop all the killings and maimings at the boston bombing. Oh wait, they didn't - from two super stupid criminals not even trying to hide what they were planning. So WTF good are they doing for all the damage they've done to our society. NSA has become just like the TSA, completely useless theater that hassles everyone and accomplishes nothing. Just wait until they can park hundreds of d…
Apparently they stopped some other bombing (though it's pretty hard to convict a criminal guilty purely on intent). I think it just comes down to the trade off of freedom vs. loss of life. I mean that's what it's really about, isn't it? We are giving up the freedom of privacy for the potential of more security? Yet, This is not the American Way At one point we realized that in order to protect the freedoms of our peo…
They've been busily locking folks up over here in the UK for the last year or so for life sentences, just for talking about plots - no action whatsoever.
Precrime is already here and nobody is batting a damned eyelid.
Re: People with nothing to hide
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
Responses like these just legitimize the idea that privacy is about hiding things. It isn't. Privacy is a way of restricting the government's power over you. Giving the government the power to read your email, tap your phone, and record your porn usage isn't bad simply because it's embarrassing. After all, the data will likely only be seen by a computer. But it gives the government enormous power to make decisions ab…
"But it gives the government enormous power to make decisions about you " What the government can and can't do is limited by the rights granted to them by the constitution and other laws. They're extremely hamstrung. I think your TSA example perfectly illustrates how the lack of privacy doesn't lead to an abuse of power; it's ironically a testament to how good our system is. To think there are people the government a…
It's essential to liberty though, because the power structure uses information from the privacy invasion to get leverage on you. Stalin's quote, "Show me the man and I'll find you the crime" illustrates this pretty well. Note the word "find." The more data the attacker has, the more they can criminalize.
Re: People with nothing to hide
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
"But it gives the government enormous power to make decisions about you " What the government can and can't do is limited by the rights granted to them by the constitution and other laws. They're extremely hamstrung. I think your TSA example perfectly illustrates how the lack of privacy doesn't lead to an abuse of power; it's ironically a testament to how good our system is. To think there are people the government a…
It's essential to liberty though, because the power structure uses information from the privacy invasion to get leverage on you. Stalin's quote, "Show me the man and I'll find you the crime" illustrates this pretty well. Note the word "find." The more data the attacker has, the more they can criminalize.
None of what you said proves it's "essential".
If you have liberty guaranteed by a legal system, then the government can't attack you.
I mean they can but they'd be violating your rights, and for the sake of this discussion we're assuming they will not do that (if you do assume they ignore laws then legislating privacy protections is meaningless)
Shouldn't the focus be on making sure the government doesn't have means to attack people? ie. That people are guaranteed rights and the power of the state is limited.
PS: Bringing up Stalin kinda makes my point. Privacy is only important in dysfunctional societies where the state is not going to abide by the laws that constrain it. No first world nation in the past 50 years has regressed to a totalitarian state.
Re: People with nothing to hide
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
The government was also keeping the existence of PRISM confidential....
One thing is leaking the fact that there is a program, another to leak all the data.
Alright. The government was also keeping confidential the videos of the Baghdad and Granai airstrikes, the diplomatic cables and the Iraq & Afghanistan War logs. Do you think they care more about protecting the privacy of your data?
Re: People with nothing to hide
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a hyperbole to demonstrate that hiding certain things isn't an illegal or a even bad thing. In fact I'd say its overall better for all involved. And for the record there is always a way to do all the listed things while being completely more or less naked (transparent clothing, frequent showerings, small discreet tatto, etc).
I think you're example is a good example of how weak the arguments for privacy are. All I see are hyperbolic examples. My favorite ones are where people try to bring up how the lack of privacy lead to horrors like NAZI Germany or Iran as if the US is somehow comparable. And they say "But government can change!". Only in la-la land is the US government going to turn into Iran. No developed country in the past 50 years…
Why would you need totalitarianism? The government which gave Turing the choice between imprisonment and hormonal treatment using injections for the crime of "indecency" wasn't totalitarian. Developed countries - and the US in particular - violate basic human rights regularly. You don't need to imagine hypothetical scenarios.
That said, I believe this is all irrelevant. Privacy is an end in itself, it doesn't need to be justified.