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Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

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Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#11
post #8
post #6

It's simple. Verizon, Qwest, etc. are not tech companies . They are telecommunications carriers, regulated utilities, who are close to an extension of the government. The implausible part of the worst PRISM allegations was that Google/Facebook/etc. behaved like that, but telcos have acted as extensions of spy agencies for as long as they've been around -- back to the "Black Chambers".

> regulated utilities, who are close to an extension of the government. This is a good concrete example of something I often point out, which is that an extension of the government is what regulation is .

It's an important point, and one that many people miss. I often see people on the left complain about corporations trying to lobby the government for control, and people on the right complain about the government trying to control corporations, but the reality is that there's basically no distinction between the two.

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#12
post #9

In all likelihood, because they need the government to work with them. Google, Facebook, Microsoft -- all companies that must deal with regulations and shareholders who care more about profits than morals. The last thing any of them need is for the government to retaliate with stricter enforcement of those regulations, which might hurt their profits. The FBI's latest push for backdoors sends these companies a clear m…

... and shareholders who care more about profits than morals I think this issue goes against shareholders because they can lose real customers feeling defrauded. It's realistic to expect legal actions against Google/Microsoft/etc operations outside US, mainly for Government accounts.

What makes you think these companies are going to lose any substantial number of customers? Most of the anger here is directed at the government, and it is only a small minority of people who even are angry about this. Only a very tiny minority of people will actually stop using Google or Facebook because of this incident.

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#13
Blow the whistle on what? The problem with the "conversation" going on in these threads is that no one is defining that first.

If we're talking about the first leaked version of PRISM, we still don't even know if it exists or how it works. Subsequent revisions have made it seem that if the NSA doesn't have the immediate ability to query the companies' backends, then they have some kind of carte blanche ability to ask for data and immediately receive it. If either of these are true, then certainly, where are the whistleblowers? If not, and there's a very real chance that neither of these are true, then the question doesn't make sense.

If instead we're talking about FISA orders, there's nothing secret to blow the whistle on. Everyone knew what they would allow. Congress was briefed on what they actually have allowed. The EFF has been in court for years (7 and 5 on different cases) to try to just figure out if their clients have standing to sue over FISA. Many of the companies on that PRISM list now have transparency reports that tell you exactly how they disclose data and provide numbers for requests (other than FISA, which you're not allowed to do). There's been tech blog coverage for years by sites like Ars Technica that discuss everything from the flawed ECPA to the attempts by the Obama administration to use national security as a guise to subvert all attempts to find out what these intelligence programs even do, let alone who they do them to. So, what did you expect them to blow a whistle on?

For instance, Google and Microsoft are both now reporting ranges of the NSLs they receive; in effect, a kind of whistleblowing, albeit a legal and vetted one. NSLs are very much like FISA orders, in that they contain gag orders and have minimal oversight (and no public oversight) for their approval. Where's the indignation and action over those?

If we're going for hindsight here, the real question is where the hell were the major news outlets and where the hell were the American people? Or why has Congress been willing to approve this program on multiple occasions? Assuming incompetence in all three of those groups, the usual response to those questions, is not an acceptable answer.

If instead we're actually looking to the future, we need to ask how we're going to hold the Obama administration and Congress's feet to the fire to make sure that this ends, and that any real search beyond basic information (in a very narrow scope!) requires probable cause demonstrated before a judge, and that notification of a warrant can't be gag-ordered and withheld indefinitely.

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#14
post #11
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> regulated utilities, who are close to an extension of the government. This is a good concrete example of something I often point out, which is that an extension of the government is what regulation is .

It's an important point, and one that many people miss. I often see people on the left complain about corporations trying to lobby the government for control, and people on the right complain about the government trying to control corporations, but the reality is that there's basically no distinction between the two.

There's a huge difference between large companies in regulated industries and startups in non-regulated industries (or even decent-sized companies in lightly regulated industries, like tech). And local/state governments vs. federal.

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#15

Blow the whistle on what? The problem with the "conversation" going on in these threads is that no one is defining that first. If we're talking about the first leaked version of PRISM, we still don't even know if it exists or how it works. Subsequent revisions have made it seem that if the NSA doesn't have the immediate ability to query the companies' backends, then they have some kind of carte blanche ability to ask…

What exactly happens if you just don't respond to a FISA warrant?

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#16
post #15

Blow the whistle on what? The problem with the "conversation" going on in these threads is that no one is defining that first. If we're talking about the first leaked version of PRISM, we still don't even know if it exists or how it works. Subsequent revisions have made it seem that if the NSA doesn't have the immediate ability to query the companies' backends, then they have some kind of carte blanche ability to ask…

What exactly happens if you just don't respond to a FISA warrant?

Well it's a real (if secret) court, so I assume it would be what normally happens for contempt of court.

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#17
post #16
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly happens if you just don't respond to a FISA warrant?

Well it's a real (if secret) court, so I assume it would be what normally happens for contempt of court.

What sort of consequences can they impose without revealing the existence of the secret court?

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#18
There are several valid reasons why they didn't blow the whistle:

1. As the NYTimes article leaks[1], the leaders of these tech companies may not actually know the extent of FISA and PRISM within their servers - employees cooperating with the NSA would be forbidden from sharing this even with the CEOs.

2. What are they blowing the whistle on? There are a flurry of competing facts and fragmented stories. It came out afterwards that the NSA may not actually have as incredible access as they originally claimed. All they had to go on was the original Guardian article, which merely states "direct access" - everything else is, as the CEOs stated, covered under FISA laws.

3. Speaking of FISA laws, it's a violation of national security to even acknowledge the existence of FISA requests. PRISM is justified through section 702 of FISA. They wouldn't risk treason. This is reasonable. Are you on such a high horse as to say you would do differently?

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/technology/tech-companies-...

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#19
For the post linked in the headline, those seem like shocking accusations, but the kind I'm now accustomed to taking with a grain of salt. It seems perfectly plausible that the guy legitimately deserves a 6 year sentence for reasons unrelated to any of this.

As for the subject/headline, which I'm not sure is related to the particular post linked, it seems pretty simple. Tech companies would probably see PRISM with much more perspective than the internet's knee-jerk reaction. After all, these are companies who have that information at their finger tips 24/7, who can invade all kinds of privacy without any oversight or checks and balances and nobody would even know to get outraged. The media companies, particularly Google, are companies that regularly collect and profile that information anyway for the expressed purpose of profiling people in order to maximize their ability to manipulate the public. As far as tech leaders are concerned, the NSA is the first party to suggest doing something non-evil or selfish with all that data.

So for things like listening to phone conversations, there's still an argument and some outrage to be had. But I think for a lot of the companies, the leaders would have to sooner blow the whistle on themselves than the NSA. The whistle blowing would have to come from where it apparently did--an ideologue who has a fetish-ized view of the public sector as something evil and invasive even as the private sector pours over all the same information unimpeded for selfish ends.

Re: Why didn't tech company leaders blow the whistle?

#20
post #17
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's a real (if secret) court, so I assume it would be what normally happens for contempt of court.

What sort of consequences can they impose without revealing the existence of the secret court?

The existence of the court is not secret, only its proceedings.
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