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Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#111

Post by cup »

rd108 wrote: post #97
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

This is foolish. Non-violent protest is how the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King, Jr. forced better law, Gandhi did the same and freed India from the British empire. And today we're much more networked and able to communicate directly, P2P, without the media or government as message passer. Our system works remarkably well, considering how poorly it works ;) Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater- th…

I think non-violent protests only work when the state (or entity you are protesting against) is forced to negotiate. By that I mean all these non violent protests occured at a time during violent protests. Martin Luther King Jnr was given negotiating power because the State preferred a non violent entity over the black panthers and other militaristic groups.

If there is no threat of repercussion, why would any entity bother negotiating with you?

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#112

Post by repler »

oinksoft wrote: post #108
aj700 wrote: post #103

This should be read as an indictment of what the site has become, not just an example of it. "Where's the petition to NOT pardon him!!" I will do it. I will ragequit. This site is turning into a libertarian silicon valley version of freerepublic. When you've found civilisation, America, in 1000 years or so you'll realise that autoritarianism works and that's why you've got it. If we had a fascist government, everyone…

Why not just stand up and cool off? The focus of the story is privacy on the internet, and predictably it gets huge play on this website.

You'd think that the crowd who reads hacker news would understand that the data on Twitter, Facebook, and Google is not their own property.

You are not entitled to outrage over data you freely gave away.

And the NSA has had domestic phone metadata since the 1970's, the only thing different is the speed and scale.

The real focus should be on the guy who gave up state secrets and then defected to China. Did he make some kind of deal? There were a dozen better ways to handle the abuse he perceived at the NSA - he chose what was most convenient for him.

He does not get my respect, and he is certainly not a hero.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#113

Post by rosser »

Tloewald wrote: post #95
enraged_camel wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First you say this: Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? Then you say this: Want to make change? Educate people. nothing else. Your teachers must have omitted teaching you about the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War protests. And those are only two examples where protesting and rioting actually made a huge difference.

Indeed much of the violence in Vietnam war protests turns out to have been instigated by FBI agent provocateurs. Most of the violence of the era was perpetrated by the forces against change.

much of the violence in Vietnam war protests turns out to have been instigated by FBI agent provocateurs.

Oddly like many — if not most — of the "terror plots" that have been "stopped" over the past however many years, that...

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#114

Post by wavefunction »

parollo wrote: post #68

women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children women and children why won't someone think of the women and children women and children WOMEN AND CHILDREN women and children why aren't you crying yet (referred to this thr…

Don't worry, this means an awful lot to many out here, even in America

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#115

Post by obstacle1 »

rd108 wrote: post #97
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

This is foolish. Non-violent protest is how the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King, Jr. forced better law, Gandhi did the same and freed India from the British empire. And today we're much more networked and able to communicate directly, P2P, without the media or government as message passer. Our system works remarkably well, considering how poorly it works ;) Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater- th…

Civil disobedience is a subset of nonviolent protest. The point is you actually have to do something that forces the state's hand. Not sit at home and sign a petition.

For example shutting down a city's infrastructure indefinitely via mass-scale physical sit ins is likely to be much more effective than signing an internet petition. Labor strikes en masse are likely to be much more effective than signing an internet petition. _INSERT_REAL-WORLD_ACTION_HERE_ is likely to be much more effective than signing an internet petition.

If the state knows that it can violate its subjects with the worst backlash being an internet petition, guess what -- the state will continue violating its subjects indefinitely.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#116

Post by logn »

timr wrote: post #92
logn wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? Maybe I'm missing something, but you should re-read carefully http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-record... and see if you still think the same... by the way that news story was built on information leaked by Edward Snowden. So, in my opinion, that's why he's an American hero because he directly responded to people like you to provide real proof that, yeah, things are really bad right now, worse t…

That's not PRISM. That's the other program revealed last week. The warrantless collection of phone number "metadata" has also been ruled legal by the Supreme Court, whereas the legal basis for PRISM has never been reviewed by SCOTUS. Which leads me to an important aside: how much of the outrage being vented here comes from people who don't even know that these are two different programs? Take everything you read here…

I know the difference between the two. My point was that the Verizon collection of data very clearly was for the entire customer base of their major subsidiary. Also this 'metadata' has a staggering amount of information, like geocodes, dialed and received numbers, potentially content of SMS, downloaded apps, sites visited, etc. Further if this subsidiary controlled any Internet backbone (which I have no idea if that's the case), the implications are huge.

Edward Snowden's rationale for leaking this info is that people never realized that collection of metadata of phone records and PRISM and other programs had gone so far. Maybe SCOTUS ruled on some of this, but the public never realized the implications, largely because it's all protected by top secret classification.

I used the Verizon story in my comment because those implicated in PRISM said in their carefully crafted PR messages that their warrants were for specific subjects and unlike Verizon's vast dragnet. Anyhow, as other have pointed out, it's not hard to draft a specific warrant for the narrow group of 'every US user 13 years or older' which is what I'd presume PRISM involved. Also, the slides leaked for the PRISM stories showed that PRISM was the improvement on older collection techniques of essentially splicing Internet backbone cables.

Agreed on taking replies here with a grain of salt.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#117

Post by Xanza »

There's a lot of negativity in this thread, so I'll simply say two things.

1) If you do nothing, nothing will change. Protesting might not be the best choice, but it's better than no action at all. This petition will change absolutely nothing, especially if it only reaches the minimum required signatures. There are 311,000,000 people in the United States which means a menial 100,000 signatures accounts for 0.0003215434% of the total population. Not even 0.01%.

2) Martin Luther King Jr changed the course of a nation with civil disobedience. To say it can't be done again is ignorant and foolish.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#118

Post by camus »

mpyne wrote: post #87
staunch wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama has publicly acknowledged that phone records are being collected en masse. In his own words: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/06/07/transcript-what-oba...

Collected but not "seized", and then not searched at all without a warrant? Those records? On a side note it's fascinating how the government has taken the 'digital piracy' logic of "I didn't steal it, the guy I copied it from still has their copy!" and re-arranged that to apply to digital data on a person. I'm not sure whether to cringe or be impressed...

is there really a difference ? i mean if the cops copy your hardrive , what is it ? collecting or seizing ? just because they dont actually look into it is ok ? I agree about your your piracy point , you are spot on ,which show how twisted the government is. They are just legal hackers, that's what they are, but they'll sue you if you do the same.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#119

Post by [deleted] »

olefoo wrote: post #99
dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

A more effective list of tactics (for the long term): 1. poison databases; feed bogus information to surveillance systems at all levels, do this as a matter of course, make it pop culture. 2. build darknets: for instance wifi nodes disconnected from the internet that multiple communities use as a dropbox and rendezvous point ( a linux box, a solar cell, some git magic (or UUCP/Usenet for the old school feel ), and yo…

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