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Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

petitions.whitehouse.gov

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Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#91

Post by ahallock »

btilly wrote: post #63
WildUtah wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause , supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Playing Devil's advocate here. The government position is that it isn't a search until they subject the data to analysis. Nor is it a seizure when you still have your data. Thus they draw a line between collecting data (making sure they have it) and actually searching it. Therefore broad data collection does not violate the 4th so long as they always get specific warrants before actually searching that data.

But how do we know that? There is no accountability. They do everything under secrecy. It might be different if we had a third-party, non-governmental agency verifying that they are not violating the 4th amendment.

Why have no accountability and no transparency if they were not going to violate our privacy? I'm flipping the "If you have nothing to hide" bit on them.

But even if there were oversight, the main issue is the potential for abuse. Having all that data in the hands of an entity that can imprison you is a pretty frightening idea. Sure, maybe they're following the rules now, but in desperate times, people can behave immorally and radically. Do not trust other human beings, even if they are under the umbrella of "government". Look at what evil humans have done in the last century alone and you'll agree that we should limit the potential for abuse as much as possible.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#92

Post by timr »

logn wrote: post #89
timr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A warrant that says 'allow us to get all the data on everyone in the country, with no specific targets'." So far, no evidence has been produced to support your assertion. In fact, all evidence in the leaked documents, official statements, etc. suggest the exact opposite: warrants are served that allow investigators to make specific searches, with oversight processes to try to reduce the number of US citizens' data i…

? Maybe I'm missing something, but you should re-read carefully http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-record... and see if you still think the same... by the way that news story was built on information leaked by Edward Snowden. So, in my opinion, that's why he's an American hero because he directly responded to people like you to provide real proof that, yeah, things are really bad right now, worse t…

That's not PRISM. That's the other program revealed last week. The warrantless collection of phone number "metadata" has also been ruled legal by the Supreme Court, whereas the legal basis for PRISM has never been reviewed by SCOTUS.

Which leads me to an important aside: how much of the outrage being vented here comes from people who don't even know that these are two different programs? Take everything you read here with a huge block of salt.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#93

Post by rd108 »

enraged_camel wrote: post #82
csomar wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? You know, Tunisia went on a relatively peaceful revolution and now we have less freedom and more problems/unemployment. It's even worse for countries where the revolution is violent. Having lived…

First you say this: Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? Then you say this: Want to make change? Educate people. nothing else. Your teachers must have omitted teaching you about the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War protests. And those are only two examples where protesting and rioting actually made a huge difference.

The Civil Rights movement used peace tactics, non-violence and Ghandian ethics. The Vietnam war protests were largely peaceful, except when e.g. government soldiers attacked college students at Kent State. @csomar is correct that changing peoples minds and following nonviolent tactics can effect change-- although not always matching everyone's expectations

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#94

Post by timr »

spikels wrote: post #81
timr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PRISM, as described, is a warrant-based program. But you're right...we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a proper angry mob.

I love all the doublespeak around this issue but "warrant-based" is a new one. I'm pretty sure that does NOT mean a warrant specifically naming each person whose information was collected. Or does it? You need a lawyer to translate anything our leaders (biz, gov or other) say. It's all form with very little substance. If you thought you heard something definitive you almost certainly misunderstood.

"I'm pretty sure that does NOT mean a warrant specifically naming each person whose information was collected. Or does it?"

Nobody (here) knows. This conversation is more heat than light in part because people are spouting all sorts of uninformed nonsense just to perpetuate their theatrical sense of outrage.

What I've read so far suggests that there's some sort of FISA-related oversight of the "reports" generated by PRISM. It sounds like analysts can do queries based on certain rules that are designed to include only conversations with foreign participants, but to get detailed information they need to go through a FISA court.

Honestly, though...you can't tell much of anything from the documents that have been leaked. Most of the details you see people discussing here are speculation, or worse.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#95

Post by Tloewald »

enraged_camel wrote: post #82
csomar wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? You know, Tunisia went on a relatively peaceful revolution and now we have less freedom and more problems/unemployment. It's even worse for countries where the revolution is violent. Having lived…

First you say this: Do you have any backups for that? I mean, any historical proof that rioting will make change? Then you say this: Want to make change? Educate people. nothing else. Your teachers must have omitted teaching you about the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War protests. And those are only two examples where protesting and rioting actually made a huge difference.

Indeed much of the violence in Vietnam war protests turns out to have been instigated by FBI agent provocateurs. Most of the violence of the era was perpetrated by the forces against change.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#96

Post by Tloewald »

anigbrowl wrote: post #76
baby wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolution in France in 1789. We don't learn history in school for nothing I hope.

And a few years later they made Napoleon an emperor and he went on a spree of military conquest across the whole of Europe. Great example.

After a brief period of show trials and bloodletting.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#97

Post by rd108 »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

This is foolish. Non-violent protest is how the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King, Jr. forced better law, Gandhi did the same and freed India from the British empire. And today we're much more networked and able to communicate directly, P2P, without the media or government as message passer. Our system works remarkably well, considering how poorly it works ;) Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater- these government agencies can be reined in, they live on government budgets every year just like the rest of government. It is the End of privacy, and that's okay.. But as an aside, I reckon surveillance equipment should also gaze back at the Police State itself. Google glass and Steve Mann's ideas about "sousveillance" will hopefully continue to evolve, they're all much smarter people than me. Every gov official should be under 24-7 video and email surveillance ;). i think a good rule is, the more power you have the more you have to be spied on constantly by the people.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#98

Post by Tloewald »

dpearson wrote: post #26
nikcub wrote: post #23

You need to have been convicted to receive a pardon, the petition should be not to prosecute. Despite the semantics, this is a good idea to let the administration know that a lot of citizens do not consider what Snowden did to be a crime and support his actions.

Nixon received a "full, free, and absolute pardon" from Gerald Ford [0], despite not actually having even stood trial, let alone having been convicted. [0]: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/26847.html

It's not clear if this would have stood up in court, since Nixon was never prosecuted.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#99

Post by olefoo »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

A more effective list of tactics (for the long term):

1. poison databases; feed bogus information to surveillance systems at all levels, do this as a matter of course, make it pop culture.

2. build darknets: for instance wifi nodes disconnected from the internet that multiple communities use as a dropbox and rendezvous point ( a linux box, a solar cell, some git magic (or UUCP/Usenet for the old school feel ), and you have something that exists beyond the knowledge of the network ) for extra kicks confine it to only a few locations and times. Or build entire networks air-gapped from the internet; wire your neighborhood and make your own media.

3. If everybody's an informant, make a game of it. Rat out your enemies to the authorities, better yet rat out the informants as rabble rousers...

4. Get serious; break into secret databases, copy them and spread them around.

5. Identify effective advocates of the national security state and neutralize them. But only the effective ones. If you're doing the job right the 10 people within the NSA who are politically adept and technically competent should be in jail for child pornography by this time next year. Any mid-level member of the intelligence community who isn't regularly getting hit with bogus charges and stupid anonymous pranks is probably grossly incompetent.

6. If you know anyone who works in the intelligence community, shame them socially; ask them why they are making the USA into East Germany.

7. Occupy

8. Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

Re: Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden

#100

Post by waltz »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #31

I don't mean to be cynical, but a mere petition is just the tip of the iceberg. This is a government agency that is commiting widespread breach of privacy. A petition will not be respected. It's an OK start, but it will be essentially meaningless. If you want results, riot in the streets. Civil disobeience. Historical actions and movements that achieve some measure of peace. The ease of an action corresponds to what…

They are cunning and you should be above it.
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